2017 Grafting Thread

When I was really short on grafting wood and had a bunch of really large rootstocks 3"+ in diameter I used rind aka bark grafts with a single bud from scion wood unusable for most things. If you use a 1 foot scion or a 1/4" scion with bud I’ve found the growth rate changes very little. Either way you get several foot of growth in a year. The only advantage to using 1 foot scions is they don’t break off as easy as fresh green new growth wood during wind storms. Overall I prefer cleft to bark grafts with small wood though because cleft grafts heal in 2 years on larger rootstocks whereas bark grafts can take twice as long to heal.

2 Likes

Cleft grafts have been done for thousands of years. It’s because they work. I’ll do a cleft graft when I have 1/4" scionwood and 1/2" rootstock; I always do bark grafts on larger caliper like 1" with pencil or slightly larger scionwood. 3" caliper rootstock or larger I always use bark grafts. It’s so simple. It’s kind of fun whittling the scion. In fact, I enjoy doing it immensely.

A 7’ tall hickory with two 3/8" scions bark grafted into it last year have grown 5-6 ft. this year. You just have to be aware this is going to happen and prepare the tree with a long and very sturdy stake.

But I hear you Clark. For whatever reason or reasons clefts are not my go to graft. On easy fruit trees it doesn’t matter what you do. For fun I cleft grafted an oak this year and it took. I just wanted to see if it would. I likely wouldn’t try it on a bundle of oaks because I know that whip and tongue or my tool yields great results, & because I was told in the beginning to do techniques where a lot of cambium is touching and is necessary.

You know we all figure out what works in the end. I still don’t believe that peaches are more difficult or persimmons are more difficult or nut trees are more difficult than say apples or pears. I did learn this year that heat influenced better takes. Even if I had 80% I would still be standing there scratching my head and wondering why the other 20% didn’t take… so I actually unwrap them to find out why…

I always blame the wood whether the scion or rootstock when a graft doesn’t take unless I saw that I had a bow in the connection so the cambiums were not touching. You’d be surprised to hear that of those that possibly didn’t take, for me it’s 100% of the time it’s the same cultivar. If I get 75% of say 50 persimmon grafts, 10 of a single cultivar didn’t take. I see it every time. The wood may have looked good when I grafted it, but in the end it was junk. The wood simply died. I leave 5% to chance.

Dax

5 Likes

Dax,
I agree completely it’s the wood and weather. Sometimes it is either it is compatible wood or it’s not. That one great variety is the one that always fails for me 100% . Then I look another 5 years to find scions again. At this point most of us are not practicing technique though we may be improving our technique. I’ve not done the flap grafts so that’s going to be something new to me. I hope to try that with hazelnuts next year because I think it’s really going to be difficult and I will learn a lot from it. Callery rootstocks are my favorite to graft because it feels kind of like having lunch with an old friend we go way back. I hid the fact I grafted callery for many years because I knew how hated they are by many expert orchardist. Wild callery are my most challenging trees to graft and you never know what will take or not. The genetics is different on every tree. Some take really easy but some are hard. That little yellow pear will graft to most pears. I use it frequently as an interstem. Wild callery don’t give up easy I’ve seen them grow where nothing else will. I have some high alkaline soil and they don’t even like to grow there but yet they can. Clefts are a graft I do because they work well. They take a lot of time but I feel they add strength to the graft. I love to read your techniques it’s very interesting. Thanks for posting your findings.

3 Likes

My pleasure.

There are other things that aid in success. A heavy handled knife vs. a Victorinx knife will change your whole game. Having something heavy to glide the blade thru the wood vs. using more body muscles and pulling the knife because it weighs virtually nothing doesn’t make for flat cuts. The right tool for the job is like a symphony orchestra playing w/o missing a beat. I can see the conductor (my Dad) telling me that since I was a little boy… he also ‘conducts’ while he’s driving his car listening to symphony music. Tells me how badass he is. He renders me speechless constantly and smiling often.

And if that knife doesn’t scare you, you don’t have it sharp enough. And if you don’t have it sharp enough, you can hurt yourself. In fact you will… there’s no question about it!!

Nice conversation. Thanks Clark.

Dax

4 Likes

Nice demonstration.

1 Like

Thank you, Bill.

Dax

1 Like

Here is a Swiss Limbertwig grafted to G.41 in early May. It wants to be an open center tree, with its four limbs on the four points of the compass rose.

Would y’all recommend I either remove or shorten one of those two fighting for dominance?

This Hall apple is growing well. G.41, grafted on May 5 this year.


.
.
Here is a mix of grafts over a four-week span in May and June. L-R: Swiss Limbertwig, Umfress, Bean, and Hall.

.
.
Finally, here below are a Slemp Limbertwig and a Kentucky Limbertwig. The Slemp was done earlier, but it’s the KY with the growth advantage.

4 Likes

While most people and books suggest using the central leader or modified central leader for apple trees I’ve read about many people that grow vase shaped apple trees. Stephen Hayes seams to prefer it. I never really understood why it wouldn’t have the same advantages that stone fruit trees have in terms of adding more light exposure and increasing ventilation to the center of the tree.

2 Likes

When several branches grow from the same spot of the main trunk which often happens in a vase shape, they are likely to split under the heavy load. Apples usually have heavier loads than stone fruits so the central leader shape with evenly spaced branches is preferable.

6 Likes

@UnderDawgAl,

You should stake one as the central leader and leave the other one on until it’s time to cut scionwood next-year.

Dax

2 Likes

Any particular knife??

1 Like

This is what I use. Tina 605T. I’ve had mine for more than 10-years. If you can find a used Tina (left or right handed) 605T, it’s a good bet.

https://www.amazon.com/A-M-Leonard-Tina-Grafting-Knife/dp/B001FADLL4

The curved handle on the Tina really positions your hand differently form the Victorinix so you feel safer and are safer. All Tina knives have the best steel of any grafting knife made. That’s a really big bonus. If however you’re going to be doing a lot of bark grafts on really large stock, I would recommend you find a handle and blade that’s twice the Tina 605T in diameter of both blade and handle.

Dax

3 Likes

https://www.midwestvineyardsupply.com/ProductList.asp?categoryid=25&subcatid=85&cat=Grafting+Knifes&Type=True

Tina 605T for 81$

I continued to checkout and this is what is said:

Total Cost (Not Including Shipping)
Standard UPS Ground or Post Office rates will be added to this total.

I’d call them before I ever placed an order.

Dax

3 Likes

For home grafters I’d go with a cheap grafting knife, as long as its got the one-side bevel it should work OK. For example:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XCRYBPR?psc=1

3 Likes

I got my Tina grafting knife from Raintree and I really like it a lot! I do about 40 grafts a year so I went with something I would not have to buy again, It really holds its edge well. If you are only doing a few a season no need to spend the extra money. The one above looks pretty darn good for $13.99, especially if its not going to be heavily used. Raintree is selling the Tina I got for $49.95.

2 Likes

To Mamuang:

The apples have definitely been encouraging, and the pears have been instructive, so I really can’t complain, especially considering how little practical experience I had coming into this. (Like, none.)

Thank you again for posting the link about nutrient deficiencies, it was really extremely helpful. In answer to your question, the fertilizer I used was Espoma Organic Bloom, which is advertised as promoting fruit and flowers. It’s a soil drench with a 1-3-1 formulation that also contains 1% calcium, plus a bunch of microbial stuff. Like I said, it was something my wife picked up for use with a potted Meyer Lemon, so I’m sure that there are other options that would have been more appropriate for what I was trying to do. (And I would be happy to learn more about them.) But it was what we had, and it seems to have worked pretty well, at least on the apples.

To Matt: Thanks for the encouragement, and the info about the growth habits of new pear grafts, that’s very helpful to know. From what you say, I’m hoping that the root systems will recover and eventually bring the trees along if given some time and a little TLC (without overdoing it). We’ll see.

Interestingly, two of the three rootstocks that ended up dying were ones that had some (minimal) growth start above the graft. Hoping to encourage them to push growth into the scion, I pinched out the growth below the graft - but the scion growth never really got going, and in the end the whole thing went kaput.

2 Likes

You guys are just show offs😡
I grafted whole spring last year,(multiple dozens), only 4 survived to this year!:sob:

4 Likes

Excellent tutorial. That should be a separate topic in the Guide section.

3 Likes

I’ve grown to like a razor knife.

1 Like