I’m curious to learn more from folks who tried a “no-spray” (no pesticide) program what happened - what were your alternate methods and where do you think they went wrong. I’m trying to raise my orchard in as “organic” a way as possible and always like to learn from others’ experiences.
It seems to me, its not a binary thing - “spray” vs “no-spray”. Reading through Philipp’s books and his forum as well as other permaculture forums; the “no-spray” routine is not a laisse faire approach. There are dozens of tools they are using - including spraying surround, neem paste on trunks, using mating disruption, trap trees, barrier strategies, and most importantly (i) building a healthy soil ecosystem, and (ii) creating diverse plant ecosystem in the orchard that supports endemic populations of predators to keep pests somewhat in check. Different tools are being used in different situations and it requires a lot more work and experimentation than just “not spraying”.
It occurs to me that the last point - having the diverse and balanced ecosystem - should take the longest amount of time and the most effort to build and maintain. its probably very difficult to build in a suburban environment. And not having it during the transition to “no-spray” or in the beginning years of the orchard would leave trees open to unrelenting attack. Likewise it can take time to build your soil, and if its in poor shape the trees may suffer from nutrient deficiencies making them susceptible to disease pressure.
One happy accidental discovery I made this year - I planted a crop of winter rye along the sides of my newly constructed gravel driveway to prevent soil erosion. I got behind this spring and didn’t kill the rye, which then went to seed. All summer there were dozens (hundreds) of birds in that rye patch eating seeds, then flying over to my trees to pick them clean of any caterpillars. My neighbors were practically defoliated from caterpillars (and they spray). I had only one tree out of 25 that had any noticeable damage.
Garden,
You will get a lot of different opinions just from this forum alone.
Here’s mine: Maintaining a no spray fruit tree orchard is a lot of work if you do not live in near perfect fruit growing area (drier air, temperate climate, fewer bugs and diseases present).
I am in a densely populated area where my neighbor lands on both sides are fewer than 10 steps away. Permaculture does not look possible. I think it’s important to know what diseases, bugs and other pests you have in your area. Then, find a way that you are most comfortable with to deal with it. (no spray, low spray, lot of spray for perfect fruit)
I’ve found that for apples, CAR is my biggest issue. I do not always plant CAR resistant apples. I use myclobutanil because it’s very effective with two sprays and it helps with scab and mildew. I may try wettable sulfur down the road.
Stone fruit- I found that peaches are the biggest pain for me on both diseases (canker, bacteria spots, brown rot, peach leave curl, etc) and bugs like OFM, CM, Plum Curculio, sting bugs, etc. After several years, I am quite discouraged by growing peaches with low spray. I spray copper at dormant and Surround before I bag. Will need to consider Serenade as insecticide next spring. I use Indar for brown rot on my stone fruit.
I still have hope for plums and cherries as I only need to spray copper at dormant and myclobutanil for leave spot and bag the fruit.
People have to decide for themselves how much time and energy they want to spend when they want to go a no spray route. My approach is a low-spray one. I can live with it for the most part.
Gekko, I thought you were the originator of this topic, who lives near San Diego. When submitting questions about pest control it is very useful for us to know where you are trying to grow fruit- and not just the zone.
The only long-term successful cases I have heard of Phillip’s approach are people in the very upper parts of the US or in the west coast. There is no reason why it can’t work, but there is no data (so far) showing it can. I hope some people (e.g. you) are willing to try it out so we can all benefit from what is learned. I am doing many of the points of the Phillips “program”, leaving down ramial wood, Surround, mating disruption, neem on trunks, encouraging beneficials, but so far I still need to do more sprays.
Almost true. She’s in Poway, part of San Diego county, but a different climate zone from the City of San Diego proper.
Likely true.
Very true.
@Lids … I’m pretty sure I can help you achieve the results you want by the methods you want, please contact me to arrange a visit … we’d love to have your questions along with significant others for a morning or afternoon
@hambone, I used the cheapest ziplock-type sandwich bags I could find. Following the advice here and on GW, I cut the bottom corners off to help any condensation to drain, and I cut the excess plastic off above the zipper so that I could get as much of the apple stem as possible inside the bag with the apples.
I started with a box of 100 store-brand bags, which I used more quickly than I ever imagined. I then bought a box of 400 bags, and finally a second box of 400 bags. I would prep the bags in advance, usually when it was raining outside and the kids were playing on the living room floor. I would sit there with them, small garbage can between my knees, and cut those bags.
This year, I’m going to prep the bags over the winter–probably do another 900.
Of the 900 apples bagged, I lost 30-40 from either early drops or deer trying to get the apples, which they gave up on. We harvested most of them, and they were spray-free, this in an area with intense pest pressure. (Tangent: The unbagged apples were only sprayed 5 times, and they turned out great.)
I just pulled two of those bagged apples from the fridge to pack in my lunch for tomorrow. Who would have thought Golden Delicious would still be so good 2-1/2 months after picking them?
Sorry Alan! I will include that in the post next time. I’m particularly interested in the methods that will work for me in the inland San Diego area but also just generally interested. So much to learn!
I’m not doing very well on this topic communicating- I actually understood your location, but was confused when Garden Gekko stepped in here, thinking it was a comment coming from you (I can’t even keep track of names in real life). At any rate I think you are on your way to getting all the info you need.
The concept that having a “diverse and balanced ecosystem” does not, IMO, exist in gardening or agriculture. The whole point is tipping the balance towards the advantage of our clever, if short-sighted species (but then, what species are long sighted besides the gods?). This tipping includes as much fighting nature as working with it.
My point is more than philosophical here. A relatively balanced ecosystem is one that would at least be oriented towards being self-sustaining, such as a native wild mini-prairie, which tends to be a difficult place to grow fruit trees because this environment encourages certain bug pests and greater humidity by way of catching more dew and probably by causing a greater level of transpiration than the conventional bare dirt with sod middles or the common homeowner’s closely mowed sod. Prairie species may also engage in allelopathy or chemical warfare against their enemies- the tall trees. A monoculture of a specific or few grass species, frequently mowed, creates an environment that is more sterile and reduces fruit tree pests. Shorter plants also tend to have shorter root systems, making them less competitive for water and other nutrients.
When you try to engineer something with the intent of proving your personal philosophy, your effort is likely to be hamstrung by your ideology. In this case it may become more profitable to write books than to grow food.
I only bagged about 250 last year but it looks like this number might double or triple for 2017. You and I share a habit of preparing bags during the winter months.
Apples without pesticides is a goal of mine. I have focused on soil health and fertility, a diverse orchard ecosystem, and proper varietal selection to help attain my dream of producing fruit without buying and applying chemical sprays. I have the luxury of not needing grow perfect ‘clean’ fruit since I’m not growing for fresh fruit market, PYO, or clients who expect supermarket quality fruit. I also have some leeway given that my trees are still coming into production-perhaps I’d be more likely to spray chemicals if I saw large potential crops lost or ruined to pest pressure. Funny thing- some blemishes on apples are now linked to them being actually more nutritious!
Thank you. But it is also fair to say that a hobbyist fruit grower is entitled to follow their philosophy- the profit is in the satisfaction of accomplishment in one’s own terms. I admire all fruit growers who manage to succeed at harvesting usable fruit. My remark is intentionally directed as Michael Phillips, who is a semi-professional apple grower and, apparently, a successful gardening writer. . I’m an admirer of his original book, “The Apple Grower”.
The OP asked about growing apples without pesticides. I offered an opinion on that topic. I am sorry that you feel that is “stepping in” and if it confused you.
To Lids - this topic obviously generates some strong emotions, and some people just don’t believe that what you are trying to accomplish is possible. However, the fact is that there ARE a large number of people, some of whom are commercial growers, who post on these boards as well as other fruit growing and permaculture forums, who are trying and in many cases succeeding in growing fruit without pesticides. Maybe not (yet) in every microclimate. When you’re trying something new, perhaps it’s better to seek advice from people who are actually doing it, rather than people who say it can’t be done.
All you’re doing is creating an environment devoid of defenses. Insect pests will still drift in, and there will be no predatory insects in place to counter the threat, which forces you to rely on pesticides.
I don’t think anyone is doubting you can grow no-spray fruit in San Diego. I can also believe it is possible in the northern tier of the US. But I am doubtful it is possible in my zone. If you knew of any grower in my climate with a long-term success story I would love to hear about it. In spite of masses of beneficial bugs in my orchard (I spray no general bug killers) I would be lost without the Surround and viruses to take case of the curculio and moths.
I also don’t think “diverse and balanced” per se means much, but encouraging beneficial insects and soil microbes on the other hand sounds like a very good thing. If someone wants to call that diverse and balanced its fine with me, and if someone else wants to call it feeding their army of drones for an epic fight against orchard pests I am fine with that too
This fall I laid down a large number of nematodes, we will see how they do against larvae in the soil…
