i use round up in late spring around my fruit trees and bushes but i use very sparingly and haven’t had a issue. i don’t spray around blooming plants either. the studies I’ve read about, from both sides of the argument, show if you don’t use excessively, like commercial farmers do, round up is safe around the home. becomes inert once it hits the soil.
Sorry but this argument is the one made by those who cannot win the debate with the weight of the actual facts and by totally ignoring the reality that the risks MUST be weighed against the benefits.
Emotion driven decisions seldom lead to good results
The absolutist position (ban 'em all) cannot be achieved so let’s come up with stealth mechanism that accomplishes the same result. (Fine 'em to death). remember the power to tax is the power to destroy.
These were designed to accomplish the goal with regulations that they could not accomplish in the regular legislative process or by court challenges. This is what your proposal sounds like. How about the same fine every time an accusation made is not borne out by the facts.
Until an actually better solution, that maintains benefits and eliminates the risks, is found we must live in the reality that exists not the one we wish we could live in.
That is called progress.
Sorry I just do not buy into the absolutist bent of your position.
See the link below for proof that the power to regulate is the power to destroy
Mike
You realize there is absolutely nothing “natural” about agriculture. I know it will ruffle some feathers to say this, but agriculture is necessarily unnatural (at least in the way we talk about natural versus unnatural) given that it involves people modifying their environment. Most of the fruit trees and berry bushes we grow are also not “natural” as they are the product of selective breeding to produce a fruit appealing to humans.
The biggest problem with chemicals, and I mean this in the broad sense and not just pesticide, is that amateurs often make terrible mistakes and don’t do a good job of using the chemicals as they were intended. Admittedly, the folks in the business of producing these have a habit of looking the other way at bad practices when they are making a lot of money.
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I think the truth of the topic question is found in the mostly balanced comments on this thread, imo. Most people recognize pesticides have some risk, but are necessary in some instances. For my part, I’m glad they are trying to control those mosquitoes which are vectors of West Nile, Zika, etc. with pesticides at least in the short term (although think a longer term solution may be GMO gene drive to eventually solve this problem). I’m also glad we have pesticides at our disposal to control things like bed bugs, in our hotels as well as our homes.
From my experience pesticides are also necessary to grow food of any substantial quantity in my locale. Certainly there are exceptions. Some foods can be grown without any pesticides, but growing them in large quantities with a reasonable amount of labor is another matter. One can raise and graze cattle without pesticides here, but growing large amounts of foodstuffs directly for human consumption is extremely difficult. I could offer many examples, but one I’ll mention is that elderberries (which are completely native to KS/MO) now require pesticides because of SWD, if grown commercially.
More to the question of the topic, I use insecticides, fungicides, and herbicides (including glyphosate) in my small commercial operation and recognize there are risks. I’ve not observed any of the extreme deleterious effects on the environment mentioned earlier in the thread. I have a beekeeper friend and he has caught a swarm of bees the last two years at the orchard, in spite of my use of some neonicotinoid insecticides. There are lots of earth worms and an abundant supply of healthy soil fungi (mushrooms) at the orchard, which I largely attribute to non-tillage weed control and the use of wood chips. We have many frogs and aquatic type life around the orchard. You can hear a chorus of bull frogs in the spring/early summer at night time. I saw a small snapping turtle in the orchard about a week ago.
Below is a pic I took the other day when I stumbled across a water snake eating a live frog. I like that the snakes eat voles, so I left him alone.
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Don’t let people know that you practice organic gardening on this site. You will have dozens of people attacking you. Just say you use synthetic pesticides even if you don’t. Then they will calm down and you can resume helpful ideas about growing fruit.
John S
PDX OR
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This forum welcomes organic growers and provides a wealth of info for all people who grow fruit- and we don’t attack each other for their ideas, unless you believe being confronted with an alternate belief or opinion to be an attack.
The founder of this forum initially used nothing but organic methods in his orchard and relies almost entirely of organically approved methods to grow fruit in a very difficult region- he is an excellent source of information and is open enough to various points of view to have asked me to join the staff.of this forum-a licensed sprayer of synthetic pesticides with many contrasting view points to his own- although I do confess to maintaining a large vegetable garden with only very rare synthetic intervention (some of my greens on years lep attacks are relentless). .
However, this forum tends to be information based and not ideology based. If you come here to press an ideology you are probably wasting your time and not being helpful to the intent of the forum. .
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Actually, this is a pretty ideological statement. I could even more logically state that the power to spray is the power to destroy. In my ideology the power to tax is partially the power to keep the free market from destroying itself and creating an antimeritocratic aristocracy of pre-20th century design. This is a design doomed to failure because it ultimately turns meritocracy into a system based on inherited privilege. Any country will lose in the global competition that sinks into this state- probably to China.
Of course, further discussion on this subject must immediately move to the lounge.
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well said alan. theres too much of that going on in the world as it is. its refreshing to come here and not have people trying to push their beliefs and ways on you. keep up the good work scott!
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I wasn’t being sarcastic. I don’t like being attacked and I was warning others so they wouldn’t be attacked if they didn’t want to be. I was trying to keep the peace. If you want to have an open and honest discussion about organic practices, there are many other sites in which you can do that, but if you don’t want to be attacked, don’t do it here. I like this site. I just learned the hard way that there are some topics never to bring up on this site. Organic practices is one.
John S
PDX OR
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For what it’s worth, I always enjoy reading about people’s organic practices. All of my veggies, berries, and brambles are organically grown. I lose a fair share to diseases and pests, but I’m okay with that. Some of my trees are organically grown, some aren’t. I admire folks who are able to grow their fruits completely organically. I just haven’t been able too. I’ve also learned a lot from these discussions, including the idea that some organics can be harsh as well – I’m thinking copper here. So I think it’s great that I’m able to come here and collect as much information as possible to make decisions that are right for me. That’s my take and my experience. I hope that those who do practice organic growing will continue to share their experiences. I appreciate hearing them.
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Attack: noun - an aggressive action against a person or place
Pointing out a point of disagreement on stated facts does not quite meet the definitional burden.
Mike
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Boys, boys, boys, now play nicely in the sandbox. Mes and Alan, you guys are always good for a round in the ring, but not over organic gardening. . . really?
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Except that other people bring up organic practices all the time, including Scott, and to my knowledge you are the only one who’d use the word attack for the usual discussions that go on here on this topic. I don’t like the word to be used loosely and I think it is inaccurate and insulting to the forum.
There are clear rules on this forum that prevent people from attacking each other. I am on staff so I am aware of every comment that has been flagged in the last year and I don’t think there has been a dozen- those were dealt with swiftly and most were borderline infractions of civility.
I think another one should be that it’s against the rules to attack the forum without evidence- to just air a private grievance for the pleasure of doing it when it should be in the form of a personal note.
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I’m closing this thread for a spell, it is getting too far off-topic.