Bee Keeping here I come!

General Gardening
#121

huge help. Thank-you, sincerely.

I keep getting advice from some people around here (who very likely know much less than all of you) that since I just now put my queen in there and she’ll probably be protected for a few more days anyway, that I can just take a frame from the strong hive that doesn’t have any cells on it yet and just has a bunch of bees clinging to it, and I can move that into my weak hive and by the time the queen gets out of her little fondant box they will be used to and ready to accept her. THose same people also tell me that even if it doesn’t work, I don’t have much to loose- worst case scenario that they will either fly back to their original hive next door before she gets out or they will kill her when she gets out and then with no queen will likely go back to their other hive, and even if they leave completely I still have tons of bees in the strong hive. So little risk, and the possibility exists that the transferred bees will accept the queen in weak hive and there will be enough to build a new community, defend, etc.

I must say I’m very tempted to do this simply because my healthy hive is completely overflowing (I am certain most of the bees from the weak hive did go over there because I’m now sure there are more bees in it that the package I orgininally put in there saturday afternoon.

anyway, I’d like to hear if you all think its a risk worth taking, what could go wrong, and the likelihood of success if I simply move a frame covered in bees but not cells from healthy hive to weak one. Remember queen only been there 1.5 days
thanks

btw…I used the wax foundations that slide into the frames and not the paper/plastic ones if that matters.

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#122

Kevin, they are right when they say you have little to nothing to lose by switching a frame out now because the number of bees in your second hive are too few for it to become a viable colony. They can’t survive for the amount of time it would take to even obtain a frame of brood from the larger colony. Twenty bees simply isn’t enough workers now to even sustain themselves or their queen. Even though the odds are still against success by transferring bees, they are guaranteed to fail establishing a colony if left on their own. The choice is yours.

I hope you’ve refilled your feeder on the larger colony and reduced your entrance sizes.

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#123

Yes , that may work and sure worth a try this evening about dark. I missed the part about 20 bees , muddy is correct , that is not near enough to sustain the queen. I was thinking more along the lines of two thirds of the bees left and in reality 99.9 percent left.

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#124

OK. Thank you both very much.

Muddy- when you say to refill the feeder, do you mean the sugar water? If so, it hasn’t been emptied completely but I’ll make sure it doesn’t.

Two of you have suggested I reduce the entrance size, so I will do that, but I don’t know how or even exactly what you mean. You said to reduce it to 2 inches or so. If that is height, then mine is already less than that. I you mean width, then how do I do that? I guess I could cut a little 1 inch by 1 inch (approx) board and stick it across the entrance with a 2 inch gap at one end. Is that what you are suggesting?

Also, what is the advantage of reducing entrance size?

THanks.

kevin

#125

Here is what an entrance reducer looks like, this commercial version can be turned different ways to provide more than one size of entrance.

image.png640×1136 106 KB

#126

Yes.

Fewer bees can come and go at a time. It provides more security, and is easier to protect their home. I use a reduced opening when they are new and in the winter,even in the fall when the yellow jackets are problematic.

#127

Sorry Kevin, I had a jargon prolapse.
I didn’t realize you were 2 hrs away from your supplier. Without bees in a weak colony to cover brood pulled from another colony, the brood will die. In a healthy colony situation, workers won’ t abscond off viable brood(bees won’t leave brood). Brood is defined as eggs to emerging bees, without the cover of adequate young, workers, the brood transfusion will fail.

Workers will try to destroy a foreign queen in a hive setting so any queen that doesn’t smell right, the workers are antagonistic to. That’s why the queen cage. If you move bees or rotate hive stands from strong to weak you run the risk of foreign workers killing the queen you are trying to strengthen and then robbing out the weaker colony. Also workers from one hive moved to another close by hive will fly back to their old colony and come back in force to rob the other colony.

Don’t get downhearted, beekeeping has a very steep learning curve. One of the best things you can hope for this year is to get your foundation drawn for your bees next year. If you start on foundation, that is usually a best case scenario. Don’t be afraid to use your hive tool to scrape off any miscues till you get the wax you want. If the miscues have honey in them, enjoy! I always considered drawn comb worth its weight in gold because it will get your bees off to a quick start.

As far as moving bees on uncapped brood to the lonely queen, Yup, I’d do that too. One hint, move that experiment hive at least 2 miles away, as the bees fly, so the workers don’t return to the other colony. If they don’t accept that queen then, let them try to build their own.

Good luck Kevin, but most of all, have fun and learn. Keep asking questions!

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#128

The only way I can see getting a frame of uncapped brood along with nurse bees at this point in time would be to beg them off of your mentor or other keeper nearby. The other queen hasn’t had time to set up and get laying strongly, yet.

“Miscues” meant comb that was built in places other than drawing it neatly from the frames.

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#129

You are right. thanks for your clarity.:slight_smile:

#130

You guys are the BEST. I reduced to entrance as described. I also went ahead and tried what some have said might work and others have told me won’t…but part of the fun is learning for myself from experience. What I did was to take a frame from the healthy hive that was covered in bees but did not have anything at all drawn on it- in other words, it was just a simple way of just moving a bunch of bees. I hung it in the weak hive and took an empty frame (well, it had the wax comb patern thing) from the weak one and put it back in the healthy hive. Man that one is full full full of bees!!! That is the good news. The queen was still alive and inside her protective box inside the weak hive, and there were still about 25 bees crawling around her little box. But since she is still in it, I’m hoping maybe the bees I moved will get used to her before she gets out. Also, those bees had only been with their queen in the other hive for a short time (35 hrs) so maybe they weren’t completely programmed to her? I did this at about 3 30 and as of 7 pm there seemed to be about the same number of bees in the weak hive as I transferred in at 3:30, so at least they didn’t take off immediately. Anyway, thanks for everyone’s help. I hope others are learning as we go here, and I know I sure am!

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#131

OK, to all my beekeeping advisors, I wanted to give a little update and get a little more feedback.

Its now been 2.5 days since I moved one frame full of bees from my heavily populated “healthy” hive over to what was an almost empty hive after most of the package of bees I started with apparently went to the other hive. Tonight I checked everything (yes, I’m opening more than I should and will stop once I figure out whats happening). Most of the bees I moved over to the “weak” hive are still there. However, I’m worried (based on some of your comments) about whether there is enough to support themselves. I have no idea how to estimate bee numbers, but the total population of this hive is just one frame that is about 80% covered on one side and about 35% covered on the other side. The good news (I think?) is that the one frame that is pretty much covered has already got a pretty good comb (that may be the wrong word but hopefully you know what I mean) being drawn/raised on about 1/2 of it. Also, the queen that is in this one is still alive and still inside her protective box, though the bees have eaten most of the fondant away and will be getting to her in the next 24 hours I think. If so, even the newly transferred bees will have spent 3 days with her, so hopefully they will accept her and not kill her when she does get out.

Also, I have reduced the entrance on this hive as suggested.

The healthy hive has about 4 frams completely covered on both sides, along with a large number of bees in different other places inside the hive. Definitely more bees than the package I started with. They have drawn a LOT of comb already, in less than 4 days. In fact, I had to leave one frame out to make space to sit the queen and her little box down inside the hive, and they have made so much comb that the missing frame can’t fit in its spot now. So they took advantage of the extra space and made such a blob of comb that it may be a problem one day. But as I understand it I won’t harvest from here anyway since its just a “brood” box.

Anyway, I’m pretty happy that I have a frame and a half of bees that seem to be staying in my formerly abandoned hive, especially since they are already drawing comb. However, I still don’t know if 1 full frame is enough to defend the hive and establish a colony. what say you all? If not, should I do anything else? THanks.

#132

You’re going to be removing that messy space filling comb so that your frames are neatly aligned when you reinsert the missing frame. They’ll rebuild proper comb when their bee space is correct.

It’s nice to hear that those transferred bees stayed put, although you still don’t have even one full frame of bees in there. Your description sounded like you have just over half a frame of bees. I’d personally like to see at least 2 frames staying in there before I got my hopes up, but I’m always reluctant to set my hopes very high when it comes to predicting bee survivability. :wink: I take it that you’re using a “deep” box, since it’s a brood box. The issue is that you need enough bees to not just draw wax, collect nectar and pollen, and do all those other chores, but also enough to cover the brood. Without enough bees to care for the brood, the rate they can raise new bees is limited.

Perhaps someone more experienced than I will have a better idea if it would still be a viable idea to attempt to switch one more frame. I don’t know the answer, myself.

#133

Here is what I would do, pull a frame of eggs out of the good hive, making sure queen is elsewhere, put frame and bees in struggling hive. Grab another frame with foundation and bees put into struggling hive make sure queen not on frame. Close struggling hive up and move two miles away. Leave for two-three weeks then bring back.

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#134

The problem is that both hives are newly set up. There are no frames of eggs and brood in either hive, yet.

#135

Kevin, Are your queens out and laying yet? If not, they need to be. Take a round toothpick and poke a hole into the candy, all the way through. If you need both hands put the pick in your mouth through the veil. Don’t poke your queens!! If egg laying is delayed too much, the queen may never start. If the workers are not aggressively(tail first) trying to get to the queen, you can release her. Wedge the cage in between 2 frames at the top bars with the screen up. As soon as the queen is released, CAREFULLY install all 10 frames, last thing you want to do is crush your newly released queen.

Muddy’s right, you need more bees in the weak colony, but you don’t have enough workers to feed uncapped brood and do everything else. Is there another beek anywhere close? If so, try to buy a frame of capped brood w/ bees to cover. Do that in the day so there are not many foragers in with the covering bees. The foragers may kill the weird(to them) queen. Should cost less than $25.

You may wonder why I’m so concerned about foreign foragers and loosing queens; I tried 2 queen colonies for a few yrs. and found that unless the sides were evenly matched, the stronger side always killed the queen on the weaker side. Exchanging hive stands with a weak colony and a strong colony to increase worker numbers in the weak colony gets you 2 dead queens. BobC is right, the good way to boast a weak colony is moving brood.

On this subject along with most others in beekeeping, there is an opinion for every beekeeper. Keep asking questions. Good luck!

#136

Phil- your post was incredibly helpful and brought up a good point I’ve worried about- releasing the queen in my weak hive.
I was very reluctant to do that because of the new bees that I moved in with her Sunday night. Since they were new to her I wanted to give them time to get acclimated. But now that you tell me how important it is that she gets out and starts laying- I will release her tomorrow. I honestly can’t tell if they are trying to kill her or spoil her, but they definitely are all piled and crawling all over her little cage. The healthy hive definitely already got that queen out, and she is already working by the way. But the weak hive queen isn’t yet out- though most of the fondant is eaten so if I don’t let her out soon she will be out anyway. But I’ll get her out tomorrow after reading your post.

you made another great point about putting all 10 frames in. I left 2 out the first few days because my queen’s little box didn’t come with a hanging hook so I just sat it on the bottom and left 2 frames out so I didn’t sit them on her box. AS a result, the bees built a big ball of wax so thick that I couldn’t get both frames back in. I’m told that was a mistake and might cause me some difficulties in the future. But I didn’t want to just cut into that big thick blob because I was afraid I’d hurt or kill the queen if she was in it. Good news is this is all in a brood chamber so I won’t be harvesting honey out of there. ANd once the queen was loose, I got one of the frames back in so its only one short.

I don’t know of anyone I could but a frame of capped brood from. My mentor couldn’t spare one yet and I don’t know anyone else close, but I’ll look into that.

The weak colony basically has 1 full frame of bees now and are building wax fast, so maybe if I get the queen out tomorrow maybe, just maybe, they will be able to produce enugh bees to sustain themselves??? If not, my teacher said he would be glad to lend me a swarm trap and some phermone so maybe I could catch a swarm. Does that sound like a good idea? Any chance that would pull my own bees out and into that trap?

#137

I must of misunderstood he mentioned he had several drawn out frames, queens will lay pretty quick once the frames are drawn. If that is the case I would shake some bees from one and move two miles. He would then have a mix of nurse and field bees.

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#138

THanks, Bob. I probably didn’t make it clear. Since I don’t really have one willing to foster my bees right now, I think I’ll just see what happens to my one frame hive. The queen is out and I literally WATCHED HER LAYING EGGS TODAY!!! It was one of the most amazing things I’ve ever seen, and I kept wondering how many bee keepers have ever actually opened their hive at the exact moment the queen was laying and have been lucky enough to see it. They have only “drawn” about 1/2 a frame full of wax (i think wax is the wrong word here? What do you call the wax (maybe comb?) that holds the eggs/pupa?). I still had 3 frames out of the hive so I could sit the little queen box in there, which allowed me the angle needed to easily observe the side of a frame as it hung in place. Also, I had my queen marked so it was easier to spot her. Anyway, when I took the top off my hive to check on the bees in the weak hive (I know I need to stop opening the hive…its just so darn amazing!) I actually saw the queen sort of crawling around. When I looked closer, I could literally see her sticking her back end into each tiny little cell to lay an egg. It was amazing how she worked sort of a pattern and never missed a single cell, in spite of all the activities going on around them. I think I’m going to be using the word “amazing” a lot when it comes to my bees! THIS IS SOOOO FUN!!!

Does anyone have any experience with the aforementioned “swarm traps”? Apparently they have some kind of box or bucket that keeps the swarm and you put some kind of queen pheromone lure in or above the actual trap to lure them in. I’m not sure I’m even describing it correctly, but hopefully you all know what I’m talking about. Anyway, I really like the idea of increasing my chances of getting a swarm, especially since I am very likely to need one if (when) my weak hive doesn’t make it. But I have some doubts about the swarm traps and hope someone can address them.?.?.?.
For one, I’m wondering how likely it is that my own bees from one or both of my own hives might smell the pheromones and leave my hive(s) to go to the trap. I guess that wouldn’t be the end of the world since I could just put them back in their hive, but I’m sure that disruption would be a bad thing.

I’m also wondering how likely it is that they really work at all. Seems like there would have to be a natural hive somewhere within 2 miles or so of me, and they’d have to be swarming, find the trap, and so on. So, it is as unlikely as I am thinking it is to actually capture a wild swarm with a swarm trap?

Finally, I’m wondering how hard it is to get a wild captured swarm to stay and to succeed in a domestic hive like mine? I know people catch swarms and keep them so its certainly doable, but for a beginner like me I wonder how hard it would be. For example, I’m not sure I could find the queen in the swarm, place her in the right location in my hive, etc.

BTW, @MuddyMess_8a , I forgot to tell you. When I told my mentor that you suggested I put in a reducer for the entry, he not only fully and completely agreed that it would be a good idea, but he shocked me by saying - you have two that came with your hives! haha. Sure enough, when he was helping me unpack my hives and other things we put things we didn’t need right away in one box and I didn’t even know what it was. haha. Anyway, thought that was funny. Its been installed since the day you advised me to do it.

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#139

Cityman,

I have nothing to add, just a follower from your posts and progresses. I’m sure it’s definitely an amazing experience!

I admired your endeavor…

Tom

#140

When you catch a swarm you don’t have to put the queen anywhere she just goes in with the rest of the bees. Here is a brief description of catching and hiving a swarm.

My tools would be a pair of pruning shears, a cardboard box, clear packing tape, veil, spray bottle with some sugar water in it.

Most people don’t really understand what a swarm is so you could find anything when you get there. I like to ask a few questions when you have them on the phone, are they on a tree branch? How high up is it? How long have they been there?

You arrive at the distressed persons house and go look at the swarm to see exactly what you have. Good, it is on a Bradford pear tree about five feet off of the ground. Put on the veil and get your tools. If they seem agitated give them a light squirt of sugar water. Clip the branch, lower it into the box. If it won’t fit in the box , get the box right under and give it a hard shake. The main swarm of bees should now be in the box, close it and tape it up. Head straight home, where you have an empty hive waiting. Open the top of th hive and set the box on top of the frames, open the box and gently turn it up on its side and allow the bees to spill out onto the frames , they should all move into the hive and out of the box in a few minutes. Put the top on and your done.

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