I.D. This Weed Please

General Fruit Growing
#21

So, did you pay the $25/sample for the type of test you preferred, or did you rely on weeds to guesstimate the types and amounts needed?

#22

I hate Spurge also. The best way for me to control them is to put down the pre-emergent in middle of march to prevent germination.

Tony

1 Like
#23

Thereā€™s many weeds that are much worse. I view this one as more of a visual issue than real competition. It does use a little water but isnā€™t tall enough and doesnā€™t climb so it canā€™t compete for light with many crops.

5 Likes
#24

So what is the downside of just letting it be?

Mike

#25

Purslane is rubbery, almost succulent, spurge is not.

#26

Mulching shouldnā€™t create N deficits over time as anything taken is returned and then some (because of N fixing bacteria that thrives in high OM soil, for one thing). Actually, fruit growers in humid regions have to be wary of excessive vegetative growth that can be stimulated by years of heavy mulch input. Takes about 8-10 years of heavy mulching but that thick humus layer mulching creates certainly can tell the trees to make wood.

There is something to be said here for landscape fabric, lightly covered with mulch to protect fabric from UV.

2 Likes
#27

that sure looks like purslane to meā€¦here in Florida itā€™s one of those weeds you find in mulch beds not so much in lawns. At least not in my experience. If I had to pick a favorite weed this would top the list. Theyā€™re really easy to pull out by hand.

#28

Mes111,

Iā€™ll offer the disclaimer, that I speak of weeds from the perspective of my area. Of course weeds operate differently in different climates/soils.

That said, I agree with fruitnut. Iā€™d just leave it be. Iā€™ve not found it to be very competitive with anything. It does spread on the ground and is visually disturbing, but Iā€™ve not seen a lot of it under full sized trees, more on open ground with full sun. Itā€™s very sensitive to any herbicide, which will kill it dead. Not like bindweed which I consider a super-weed (although it too likes full sun and doesnā€™t do well under the shade canopy). Even a mix of glyphosate and 2,4-D wonā€™t completely kill bindweed. It grows back super fast.

Another tough tough weed is horse nettle. That stuff will grow under any canopy, or out in the open. It has thorns so you have pull it with gloves. Itā€™s somewhat resistant to glyphosate. In other words if the plant is completely coated in glyphosate, it will die, but if the spray just hits a couple leaves it wonā€™t kill it.

Here, a single spotted spurge plant can spread to cover a 4 sq. ft. area, but it breaks off from the root so easily, you can almost kick it to break the root. Then if it does grow back, itā€™s really slow. I only bother with it when itā€™s close to a small tree Iā€™m trying to establish. Iā€™ve not seen it blackberries or strawberries.

Like I say this is here in the Midwest. Sounds like for folks out west, spurge a much bigger deal.

2 Likes
#29

I have many grasses that are hard to remove Spurge comes right out. Tap root may stay but the weedā€™s top side is easy enough to remove. Stinging nettle are easy to remove but manage to sting me enough every year. Any rhizome rooted weed is for me the real pain. I have been removing not new weeds, but the same plant for over 10 years in my front garden bed. Unless I kill everything it is not going away.

#30

Hah, well out here in the arid S. California climate, and on my DG soil, that sounds great, Alan. One of my other goals with mulching is to create improved soils. Over the last 7 years, I finally now have about a 2 to 4" topsoil layer full of earthworms. We do use landscape cloth here quite a bit in a lot of landscaping applications, to keep the weeds from popping up through the mulch.

And Jeremy, that is not purslane. Definitely Spotted Spurge. Purslane is a succulent. Spurge isnā€™t. Sadly, I know Spotted Spurge better than Iā€™d like. We have purslane out here, too, itā€™s just not as aggressive as spurge. Spurge pulls out more easily in my lawn because the ground is softer due to more water and the grass roots. But, when it grows in the ground or in my gravel/DG walkways, it is impossible to get the tap root unless I use a weeder tool. It does come back from the taproot, which is frustrating.

#31

No Muddy, I didnā€™t do the $25 test though Iā€™d love to have that data. What the weeds taught me was that I really shouldnā€™t be putting down potassium. Iā€™ve learned from some soil experts that ratios of certain minerals are as important as amounts. For example, for non-seed bearing crops (lettuce, the brassicas, many root crops) the ratio of P:K should be about 1:1. Well if I have a collection of weeds that say my potassium is VH (very high) and phosphorus is VL - then I know what to do AND what not to do. For seed bearing (peppers, melons, tomatoes) the ratio to shoot for is 2:1.
So When Weeds Talk I can save money. My next expenditure will lilely be a broadfork (I used my CC points for the citrus), since I canā€™t till (husband disabled by medical error - so it is Just Anne doing all the work - not my real name)

#32

My weeds are singing theyā€™re so happy! Today I accidentally pulled up a strawberry plant while weeding, it had ripe strawberries too! Argh! It should be fine.

#33

Haha Drew. I was referring to this book. :grin:

#34

Ruth Stout was a gardener and author many years ago whoā€™s work I followed closely for raising vegetables. She believed in mulching everything and kind of started the movement to use old hay in gardens. Her soil was always low on nitrogen if it was tested and her crops were still very heavy. What the soil test wonā€™t say is earthworm numbers, fungi, microbial levels, moisture levels and things like that rather typically NPK. A good soil test will check organic content but not type. Wood chips are very good for fruit trees because they establish the correct soil flora. I would recommend not worrying as much about NPK long term and worry more about NPK short term and soil flora long term. This article describes soil processes that are valuable to know and encourage http://soils.tfrec.wsu.edu/mg/flora.htm. Weeds do thrive in any soil imbalanced in my opinion. Weeds are soil equalizers and once their job is done they no longer thrive there and die out. The weeds that are invasive are not like the others that correct imbalance rather they may create imbalance. Thistles, bind weed, morning glory, etc. are all invasive. Plants that are most successful manipulate their environment just like we do in their best interest. Clovers, beans, autumn berries etc fix nitrogen from the air and add it to the soil via a symbiotic process with bacteria. Soil tests cannot read the land for clover and know itā€™s purpose rather only the result of more nitrogen. If Ruth stout would have grown clover as a cover crop and tilled it in chances are her soil would have tested good for nitrogen but it does take longer. Cover crops such as rye or wheat prevent erosion in the winter so I do think learning to read plants and use them is valuable. Soil tests are also valuable to us to see how our progress is coming along.

2 Likes
#35

Totally agree. Itā€™s kinda funny that mid to late summer we are scurring around trying to figure how to remediate our various veggies (AND all summer the fruit trees!!!) that look ailing, and the weeds were trying to tell us all along.
My concern is not so much with NPK but rather what forms of mineral ferts to use. We get sufficient-too much rain sometimes and that washes out minerals, esp Ca. For example, in the back yard the thriving varieties of weeds say Calcium VL, Mg VH (very high) and SO4 high. This means I need to replace Ca on there but not in the form of dolomite (has Mg) and not gypsum (calcium sulfate). So Calcium carbonite it is. :grin:
Funny that the book does not refer to weeds as nitrogen indicators. I donā€™t usually think to add N - guess Ruth didnā€™t either - earthworms must be doinā€™ their job.
The book does indicate which weeds flourish in compacted soils. Iā€™ve got a collection of those, which means there is a broadfork deficiency, LOL.

1 Like
#36

Ironic as I avoid carbonate for the most part, but easy enough to add tonā€™s of it by watering with tap water. Gypsum is very stable, and such. The calcium sulfate never acidifies like say ammonium sulfate does. I once had it explained to me why certain sulfates never release the sulfur, so it never turns to acid. I forgot why? Another example is epsom salts which also never acidifies anything.

1 Like
#37

the French method of getting rid of these and others like bindweed is to put a herbicide in a container on the ground and drape them in there, put a board over it, and let em drink till the roots are full.

#38

Thanks Drew, Hereā€™s some info on limestone (Calcium Carbonate) that I found helpful:

So what makes limestone superior to other forms of calcium? Limestone is calcium carbonate. 1 atom of calcium is combined with 1 atom of carbon and 3 atoms of oxygen to make CaCO3. As soil microbes digest limestone 1 atom of carbon and 2 atoms of oxygen are united as a molecule of CO2 - carbon dioxide. CO2 is either taken up by the roots or escapes from the soil as a gaseous compound. What remains of the limestone? 1 atom of calcium combined with 1 atom of oxygen. This compound is calcium oxide or lime. It is a very strong growth energy substance.

#39

Are you saying itā€™s a source of energy for a plant?

#40

Actually, not me, but the soil consultants at Intl Ag Labs, which, apply the principles of Dr Reams.