M27 apples

I know there are reasons people don’t like these. I like them as they stay super small.

I’m beginning to think maybe a few of these may be a better place to start. Staking is fine, I can probably stake them with the t-posts I use to hold the fence up. It looks like Burnt Ridge sells some trees on this rootstock, who else does?

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A quick web search for M27 trees led me here:

http://www.muscleandarmfarm.com/muscle_and_arm_farm_website_120716c_055.htm

Looks like a small family Nursery that specializes in M27 trees. Because of that, they may be a good resource to talk to, as well as to buy the trees. (No endorsement implied, I have never bought anything from this website.)

M27 does need more careful pruning and some restraint. You’re going to want to let the trees get up to size (around 4th year) before allowing them to produce. Also, as you noted they’ll need trellising. Because of the small roots, they will need to be mulched and watered whenever a week or so passes without rain (almost more like a vegetable crop than a tree.)

This isn’t a set it and forget it tree, but if you are willing to give it the consistent, minor attention it needs, you may have success.

Also, be careful of the tree varieties you get. Most will be fine, but you don’t want to get a non-vigorous tree in a non-vigorous rootstock, or you’ll end up with a runt, regardless of what you do.

They’re also very fireblight susceptible, so if that’s a problem in your area, be careful. At the least, you want to get apple varieties that are more fireblight resistant and keep up on your spray schedule.

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Since I am considering using the back part of my fenced in vegetable garden to convert to an orchard anyway, (deer pressure all but requires a fence) watering them is no big deal.

Yet, getting something on a Bud9 or possibly even M26, and grafting multiple varieties on it might still be a better idea.

I have some apples on M27 interstems on M111 roots. Even that seems pretty small and I’m actually wishing I had gone with Bud9/M111 instead for those since it is easier to keep trees small with summer prunning than it is to get them to size up and be capable of holding much fruit when they’re on the heavily dwarfing root stocks. I have some pears on larger root stocks and I’m enjoying having the vigor to get new sprouts where I want them and just using pruning to keep them the size I want. With the M27 they just don’t put out a lot of growth and I keep hoping to get more growth but knowing it may never happen.

One of my apples died and I grafted the replacement on G696 instead which will have plenty of vigor and shouldn’t need a lot of babying. The variety (Kerr Crabapple) isn’t super vigorous, so I’m sure it will be no problem to keep it around 6-8 feet tall.

I should show you some pictures of some M9 or B9 trees I have kept strongly pruned back for 15 years… they are tiny. M9 has fallen out of favor but its generally been a good stock for me.

I would avoid M27 as the trees can runt out badly and will on average die sooner. Note I have not used it directly.

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Most of my apples are on M111 with Bud9 interstems and they have been easy to keep small.

I have Liberty and Jonagold on M27. In 15 years, Liberty is only 5 feet tall. Kind of a nice bush, blooms nice. It has a couple dozen apples a year. I thin heavily to avoid overbearing. Two years ago, I grafted from this Liberty onto a multigraft, unknown rootstock, medium dwarf, and the branch this year has much larger apples than the M27 Liberty. Still they are good lunchbox apples.

I have Honecrisp on M27. In 6 years, it’s grown 3 feet tall and had one apple. I keep planning to pull it out but I want it for scion, and a deer ate the graft I made from it last year.

I have Jonagold on M27. Being a vigorous triploid, it grew much larger, about 7 feet tall. It tends to bear alternate years, decent size apples.

Last winter, I dug up the Liberty and Jonagold and replanted them in my new place. They took the moved well, leafed out nicely and Liberty bloomed nicely too. Liberty has about 10 apples, I thinned the rest, and Jonagold has 3, but I didnt expect any after the move and with such a hot sumner.

I got my M27 trees from Raintree. I havent checked, but I imagine they still sell on M27.

For a small space, columnar trees might be an option too. My Golden Sentinel and North Pole have good apples, not as many as the ads show, and good pruning is still needed to keep columnar shape, and they still need a dwarfing rootstock. They are columnar but bushier than the ads show. My Scarlet Sentinel has had maybe 5 apples in 5 years. They taste good but thats not enough to be worthwhile.

Have you had any bark problems near the interstem unions? I’ve had a lot of issues with mine (mostly G11/M111). All have grown very weakly, not much more than M27 and with higher mortality.

Most of my M27 flower, but have trouble maturing many apples. This is the 7th year in ground for 3 of them and I finally got decent harvests out of 2. The 3rd (Hudson’s Golden Gem seems pretty productive for a tree that size, but is the preferred fruit for any animal within miles and is quickly stripped when it gets close to ripe. But the other two never ripened more than a few apples until this year. Maybe it took this long for them to work their roots deep enough, or maybe the extra rain we had helped. Either way, if you plant M27, I’d suggest irrigating more often than you think you need to…

Agreed- Both of my biggest are now 7-8’ tall (Red Boskoop is particularly vigorous) after 7 years, but a 6 year old Honeycrisp isn’t even 4’ tall. I think you need to go at least 1 class higher with HC. If I was to do it again, I’d probably use a G11 at minimum and maybe something a bit bigger.

I guess mine is doing better- I got 3 apples from it this year, also in year 6.

I think B9/M9 are my favorite stock. I have Several trees on them which are in the 5-6’ tall and about the same wide. Just letting them bear early has kept them at that size, even in year #5, with minimal pruning. They seem much more productive than M27 of similar size, as they have a much thicker canopy, while M27 doesn’t grow much wood.

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All my grafts connections with M111 or Bud9 look rough but as of now they seem to be bonded well. I had some damage from a borer on one M111 graft. It did some damage but I think it will be okay. Most of my grafts are 2-4 years and I might have more issues later. I only have one tree directly grafted to Bud9 and it has performed pretty much the same as yours.

I have only planted one M27 a few years ago and I no longer have it. It appears to need a lot more care and attention to details than what I was looking for in a root stock.

To an extent, I think we’re all informing you of all the problems inherent in your ideas, not to discourage you, but because we really love fruit growing and we want to set you up for success so you enjoy it too.

I think if you posted where you are and what your soil was like, we might have a better idea of what rootstock and varieties to advise for you?

Your profile says you’re in Zone 7A, but is that zone 7A in say, Vancouver, with low disease and insect pressure? Or 7A South Carolina, which is disease and bug central?

If it’s 7A Vancouver and you have great loamy soil, almost any rootstock and variety will be good for you. The world is your oyster. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: If it’s 7A and you live in SC with sandy, fast draining soil, your M27 is going to be a death-trap and a lot of varieties won’t be the best choice. :slightly_smiling_face:

Also, how much work are you willing to put into this?
(No judgement, it’s more a matter of are you a busy guy who’s willing to look in on the trees once in a while or do you enjoy puttering in your garden nearly every day?). If you want a fire and forget tree you just have to spray once in a while, and prune in the winter, that’s going to narrow your options as opposed to if you’re willing to spend daily time on it.

But, lets say worst comes to worst and you bite the bullet and two years later, you regret your choice. You can always top work them or dig them up and start again. There’s some people on this board who have ripped almost as many trees out as they have planted. :wink:

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Howard County, MD.

Soil is loamy, decent once amended a bit, but naturally acidic (pH around 5) and low in Phosphorus. For Maryland, it’s damn good soil, since most of Maryland tends either towards sand (Eastern shore) or clay.

How about ACNs trees on EMLA111 with Bud 9 interstem?

I’ve never tried M27. Even I don’t want apple trees that small. M9 has worked great for me at many locations but I haven’t stayed in one place more than 10-15 yrs. Even with serious woolly aphids it has done very well here. M26 is about the same. I can keep both as small as I want. Unpruned, or nearly so, they still are only about 9ft tall.

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