Orchard Visit with Alan

@alan Did you ever get to compare the two versions of Ashmead’s Kernel and if so how did the Cummins version and the other version compare?

One is late the other mid-season. Mid-season version is fully russeted and rounder. Later one is unusually squat. Both are highly flavored with a ton of sugar to go with lots of acid, balancing it out but in an aggressive way. Certainly the ticket for people who eat all kinds of apples and want something that packs a flavor wallop.

That’s from memory, this year I will be able to compare both on trees close to each other in my own orchard. I’ll have to put the earlier one in storage for about 3 weeks and try them side by side. Remind me in late Sept.

I, for one, am glad that mroot revived this old thread. I read it all again from top to bottom. I put 3 apples in my yard: Goldrush, Hoople’s and Kidd’s. If I had room for a 4th it’d be a Spitz. Bob couldn’t put it down and Alan thinks so highly of it that I’m sure it really is that good. Spitz just appears to be more “challenging” than the 3 apples I put in. I’ll just have to grab a stick sometime and grow a branch.

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Thanks for getting back to me Alan.

The reason I asked was I was thinking of starting a couple of cultivar specific threads for some apples that are going to bear this year for me- Enterprise, Winecrisp and Ashmead’s Kernel. But then I found a bookmark I had made for this thread where I had noted that Ashmead’s Kernel from Cummins Nursery might not be the right one. And of course my tree was purchased in 2016 from Cummins :slight_smile: . So hopefully I will have some apples this year too and be able to share some info with others but … it would nice to know for sure what I actually have.

Looking at “The Apple Book” by Rosie Sanders relative ripening times for it compared to other common apples in the United Kingdom-
Kidd’s Orange Red-early October
Bramley-Mid October
Mutsu-Mid October (before Ashmead)
Ashmead Kernel- Mid October
Red Delicious-Mid October( after Ashmead)

So it might be possible to narrow it down by relative ripening time. I did find this on Pomiferous. There are two versions of Ashmead’s Kernel listed the “regular” and the “improved”. The improved is supposed to be larger, redder, and more russeted.

https://pomiferous.com/applebyname/ashmeads-kernel-id-359

https://pomiferous.com/applebyname/improved-ashmeads-kernel-id-8505

I will try to ask you again when my Ashmead’s Kernel? is ripening.

Sounds like a good list- Goldrush and Kidds OR are both among the best apples I’ve had. I have a small graft of Hooples, so maybe I can add that one to the list soon too.

That seems late to me. Before I lost the tree (it was on a G11/MM111 interstem roostock and I’ve lost almost all of them), I would pick it at the end of August or in the first week of September.

Notes from 8/31/2013:

Picked first 20th Centruy asian pear. Picked another Kidds Orange Red (very good)

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My favorite apple is a good Golden Delicious. I like it better than Goldrush, which is available at a farm nearby. This means I’ll probably love Hoople’s. That farm also has Suncrisp and it, too, is excellent. I haven’t yet tried Kidd’s. I’m taking this forum’s word for it that it’s a more aromatic Gala. I needed a sweet apple for the kids and Scott noted that it ripens over a longer period of time, and earlier than the other two. It’s perfect for what I did.

I really need to try Spitzenburg sometime.

Those are ripening dates for the United Kingdom- a maritime climate. I would expect in areas with warmer summers it would ripen sooner. The relative order should be the same in most cases but the actual dates will be different depending on the climate. A similar situation exists with bloom dates for cultivars. Honeycrisp will bloom later in Maine than it does in California.

I don’t know that it is that hot here (<5 miles from coast in North East), but maybe it is compared to coastal England.

Mutsu and Red Delicious don’t seem that far off from what I’ve seen at PYO orchards here (I don’t grow either myself).

Did the g11 interstock die on you? Mine got a rough case of sw damage or maybe something else, That is what happened with most of mine. Its sad because they were easy to care for free standing precocious dwarf trees.

I think I got 8-9 of the G11/MM111 (MM111 roots with a G11 interstem). None got very large and only 3 are left, only 1 of which has been reasonably productive (a Goldrush). Of the other 2 survivors, one is only ~4’ tall and the other has only made a few apples, which animals have pilfered. Dwarf rootstocks (G11, B9, etc) seem pretty durable and I rarely lose any.

It’s been a number of years now, so I don’t recall all their causes of death, but they are generally very slow growing and not very healthy. I do recall some dying at the graft union. I think I have one still in a pot, which is now fresh grafts on a MM111.

The one B118/B9 has done fine and is comparable to a G11 or B9 in size.

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Yeah for me it was rough as mine excelled the first couple of years and then started a hard quick decline around year 4 just after getting into production. I think the last one i did not graft directly to mm111 roots died on me this year and that works as i ordered more trees than spots again. Definitely had they gotten older they would have had more graft union issues.

we are in “the” garden club you big goof, c’mon!

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It’s been a few years, but I’m going to update this thread with pictures from my most recent visit to Alan’s home orchard.

Alan had several several other people over at the same time and the fenced garden was something everyone had to see. Alan described his approach as French Intensive Gardening. His garden area is filled with many small mounds where he has raked the soil. Like raised beds without the sides to hold them in.

Whatever he is doing, it is growing very well. Here is my daughter looking up at a tomato plant. For scale, she is about 5’3" tall.

In the background, you can see some asparagus that looks like trees. I’ve got some 2 year old asparagus (older daughter wanted to grow it) that is less than half as big.

In addition to fruit and a large vegetable garden, Alan also has a lot of flowers. Here’s a pic of a butterfly landing on one.

Here’s a place where flowers and fruit meet, with sunflowers next to a pear.

One of the interesting things about seeing Alan’s trees is how mature some of them are. Here’s an apple with a massive horizontal branch which goes out 10+ feet from the trunk. It keep a large amount of the fruiting surface relatively close to the ground. He also has multi-level espaliered pears and several apricots espaliered flat against his house.

I don’t remember which tree this was, but it really shows how well Alan has thinned the fruit.

He had a number of trees which he said he didn’t thin enough, but they were all thinned much more than I would. And the result was not just bigger fruit, but sweeter fruit.

In comparison, here’s what some of my trees look like (broken branch and all):

Here’s a multi-graft apple, with William’s Pride on the bottom. Only today, did I consider that I should have sampled one. I didn’t, as I’ve got more than enough William’s Pride from my own tree and am not that fond of the apple. But, I should have tried one to see if his were better, or if I just don’t like the apple however it is grown. Mine have been in the 11-12 brix range and I have far too many. I’ve been giving them away, though I feel a bit bad given their quality.

I did try his Sansa and Zestar, both of which are good. Sansa being sweet, with Zestar being large, juicy and a bit like a less explosively crunchy Honeycrisp.

Great Yellow is a huge Euro plum. This one was moderately sweet (I’d guess 15 brix) and mild. I like the Castletons I’ve been getting better (stronger flavor), but I bet my kids would really like this one. It reminded me of the Late Transparent Gages that I grew.

One thing that doesn’t seem to be growing as fast for Alan is the Reservoir fig. His has fruit, but it is still pretty small. I meant to ask how long it has been in-ground. I have a couple that I planted out at roughly the same time I gave him the potted plant (summer 2019 I think) which both have much more developed fruit (full size for a while and probably ripe in the next 3-4 weeks). One has grown to 8-9’, while the other is similar in size to his (maybe 5’).

Interesting shaped apple, the Kandil Sinap:

Gift bag from Alan with lots of nectarines and a few doughnut peaches.

So far, I’ve held off on eating the donut peaches, even though the one I had off the tree was very good. It was so large that I was able to keep snacking on it between other trees. The only problem is that it set the bar pretty high for the other fruit.

Two nectarines were particularly good- Honey Royale and Honey Blaze. Both must have been in the upper teens for brix. Alan cut off a piece of the Honey Blaze and declared it too green, but it was perfect for me. I like my fruit pretty firm and that HB had a good combination of firm, sweet, and enough juice to carry the sweetness without being messy. On the other end of the spectrum was a Shiro which exploded over my arm when I took a bite. It wasn’t bad (mild, sweet center with tart skin), but the texture makes me want to pass on them.

Summer Beaut nectarines were large and beautiful. Taste-wise they didn’t match up to the 2 Honeys, but they weren’t bad. Probably about 12-14 brix (I should have brought my refractometer…).

Among peaches, aside from TangO’s (doughnut), John Boy and one other were the standouts. I can’t remember the 2nd name- in fact, I can’t even be sure it wasn’t a nectarine, but I do remember it was large.

One area where Alan and I differ is sweet corn. We’re both pretty picky about it, but are looking for completely different things. He’s growing an heirloom variety, which it fairly dense and has “real corn” flavor. I’m looking for tender, crisp, and sweet (both extremely tender or very crisp and moderately tender (pops off the ear when your teeth hit it) are good in my book). He gave me one bite of a pre-cooked ear from the fridge to see if what he is growing appeals to me. From my reaction, I didn’t qualify to receive any corn :slight_smile: Which is probably for the best- I would have ended up cooking it up with great anticipation, then having my wife eat most of it (she is far less picky and even chews up the corn cobs).

Alan also had a nice outside area setup with fruit and other deserts, in the shade of a small Japanese maple. Here’s a pic of the fruit-bowl- it had about twice this much initially, including doughnut peaches, which my family instantly polished off.

I regret not taking a picture of the food and beautiful deserts that his wife made. My wife and daughter loved them. I saved my sugar-intake for the fruit :slight_smile:

I’d like to thank both Alan and his wife for a wonderful time and great food & fruit.

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About the sweet corn. Bob loves the new super sweet varieties and I hate them with a passion because they are like sugar candy to me and devoid of real corn taste. I had just harvested my favorite heirloom white corn- Stowe’s Evergreen and had a few steamed ears in my fridge. Bob actually hit me up for some when he saw the remaining plants had a few ears, so I asked him to try an ear I’d cooked the day before.

When he tasted it his face registered displeasure and he indirectly commented about the toughness of kernels. I have no free space on my property and devote some to Golden Bantam and H. E. because I like to taste real sweetcorn a few times a year and to use it as an ingredient in my stews (most of the kernels get frozen for this purpose).

I want Bob to have the type of sweet corn he loves and I don’t want to waste any of the sweet corn I love because I can use every kernel.

Nothing but love for Bob, but I’m not about to waste any ears of my sweet corn on someone that likes corn that tastes like it’s been injected with corn syrup. :wink:

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I am completely on-board with Alan’s decision. It is much better for those ears to remain with someone who will treasure them, rather than think they were intended for livestock :slight_smile:

That isn’t entirely fair to the corn- when we were traveling in Puerto Rico about 15 years ago, I got corn at a market. The guy warned me that it might not be like the corn I was used to, but I figured “no problem- most corn is pretty good, even if it is a bit different”. It was actually hard to get my teeth through it. We were staying with the family of a friend and his mom clued us in that it was “field corn”. The stuff Alan grows isn’t field corn, though it is about half-way on the spectrum from what I favor vs the field corn.

I can see why he might want something like that for stews or freezing. But when I’m going to sit down and have 4-5 ears of corn (several times a week when the corn is at its peak like now), I want something that is a lot more fun to eat- injected with corn syrup and even more importantly tender/crisp.

I should mention that I’m growing corn for the first time in many years. Hopefully it will match the best corn from the farmer’s market. It is Yellowstone, a “Supersweet F-1 hybrid”. I planted a bit which should be ripe soon and more that will be ripe in late October, the time when corn stops being available at the FM, as they don’t want to take a chance planting it when the frost may get it. For a couple dozen seeds, I figure I can risk it :slight_smile:

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@alan How do the two versions of Ashmead’s Kernel compare this year?

My Ashmead from Cummins has set a few fruit this year but I haven’t picked any yet.

That was a very clear description of mouthfeel and over excellent prose

Ashmead’s is a wonderful apple at its best- no wonder the London Horticultural Society considered it the standard by which to compare all apples for many decades. The strange thing is that at some sites I manage it bears bountiful crops consistently while at my own it is stingy and has been for over a decade now- and this is on two large grafted branches at one part of my property and a whole tree on M7 at another that now has a lot of other varieties on it.

I have the exact same problem with Brambley’s Seedling, oddly enough. Maybe the angry ghost of a revolutionary American soldier resides on my property.

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I just now saw this thread again. Missed Bob’s update in Aug.

Always enjoy reading and seeing pics of others orchards. Quite frankly I’m a little surprised Alan is able to keep up with it all, along with running his orchard care business. I quit gardening years ago, when we expanded our orchard to full time.

I did have a question on the stone fruit. I thought you folks in the NE got hammered with rain this summer? Yet the fruit appearance looks excellent. And according to Bob’s report, the flavor was good too. Did the rain miss the harvest window of Bob’s visit?

My two cents on corn.

Field corn here can be consumed as sweet corn, if it’s picked exactly right. There is only about a one day window (maybe two days) that it’s edible. And it doesn’t keep in the fridge very long. It’s not as sweet as sweet corn, but it’s OK. We crop shared some farm acreage years ago and used to eat the field corn as sweet corn quite a lot.

In times past, you would see cars parked along side a field of corn with their trunks open. Random people would stop at any field of corn and grab some roasting ears, if the time was right for picking. I’m not condoning stealing food from farmers, but nobody seemed to care too much. Field corn used to sell for a couple bucks a bushel and it takes about 4 dozen ears to make a bushel, so if a random person picked a dozen ears, it didn’t amount to much. Some farmers might get upset if they caught someone in their corn patch, but others didn’t care. I know of one farmer who plants 10 acres of sweet corn and lets anyone come and pick whatever they want.

I have a super picky palate when it comes to corn. Texture is a big deal to me, so I’m more the super sweet super tender “corn syrup” type. I don’t even like the stuff they sell on the roadsides because it’s always picked too late imo. They pick it late because the kernels are fuller.

We pick and sell our sweet corn just as soon as the kernels are touching each other. And we only pick what we can sell that day. This makes for the sweetest and most tender corn. I hate it when I can taste any starch in the corn, or any of it sticks to my teeth. Most of my customers seem to agree, as we’ve received many comments like “This is the best sweet corn I’ve ever had.” etc.

Lastly, as an fyi, sweet corn should be refrigerated as close to harvest as possible. It should also be cooked as little as possible, as cooking too long will make it tough. About 5 to 7 minutes in boiling water is plenty of cooking.

As you can tell, I’m pretty snobbish when it comes to sweet corn.

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We had too much rain but enough sunny days to have a generally great harvest although quality was not there throughout the season- early summer peaches sucked and there was a lot of plum cracking. Starting July 7th I sprayed my own orchard every two weeks with Indar-Captan or Pristine-Captan for a total of 4 summer sprays. I also gave my apples a couple of calcium sprays. I did not get much better results than customers that I limited the same spray to one July 7th and one Aug 7th, which was also enough to stop early defoliation of apples. At some sites including mine, Bosc and Seckel pears defoliated too early and I just can’t be bothered with such fussy trees, although at other sites they were fine without a single summer spray.

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