I take Lithium under doctor’s orders. It is a toxic medicine. Tremors are the most common side effect. I had no idea that people were talking about this, without talking directly to me. One person has brought this to my attention. I think the stories circulating about me suffering atypical Parkinsonism should be a cautionary tale against jumping to conclusions.
We should remember the many illnesses that can cause tremor. My mother had a tremor in her hands since she was at least 30; it was a genetic condition. My case is different. I suffer from cluster headaches, the most painful headaches known to humans, worse than migraines. There is no cure. In my case the headaches are chronic, with one or two a day.
It is sheer torture, as you will see if you read Wikipedia. Since there is no cure, I am on prophylaxis (Lithium) to prevent their occurrence. When I taper off the Lithium, which I do from time to time, the tremors disappear. The neurologist who cares for me has tested me for Parkinson’s and said I do not exhibit the tell-tale symptoms; he says my tremor is consistent with Lithium.
I wonder how I contribute to this discussion of toxicity. I think you many consider me a pawpaw nut and totally defensive of the fruit. I am a nut, but I am equally a scientists. Proper realistic studies have not been done. Injecting rats with purified compounds is not realistic. The annona fruits and asimina fruits have been eaten by humans for eons. In my mind, so long as consumption is moderate and in season no lasting harm incurs. I am more concerned about allergic reactions.
Signed, Neal Peterson
you may communicate directly with me thru my website, www.petersonpawpaws.com
I am prescribed Lithium for my cluster headaches. It works at high dosage, and it gives me tremors. That is its common side effect.
Neal Peterson
I’d really like to know why no one contacted me about the tremors in the video. Somebody said “you would think he would speak up and tell people his symptoms have nothing to do with pawpaw consumption.” I am not a mind reader. Now I wonder what is the best way to address the concerns of anyone watching the video, to explain my illness and Lithium tremors. I welcome advice this group if you have ideas.
Castanea:
No one has brought this to me attention until today. Could you have written me with your concern. It is not possible for me to know what is discussed on this site, to which I have not been a member till tonight. The answer is: I have a medical condition that requires Lithium, the most common side effect is tremors. People assumed Parkinson’s. It is so wrong to assume. Now people will assume from the Lithium that I have bipolar syndrome. Wrong again. Do not make assumptions. My illness is Chronic Cluster Headache. I only put up with the Lithium because the headaches are worse. I’ve gotta go. Is late. Bedtime.
I get horrible migraines very often. I’d never heard of Lithium for cluster headaches, but that’s excellent! Even with the side effects, I’ll say, because frequent horrible headaches are just too painful to bear. It really is awful.
I hope your headaches get/stay better! Your health is certainly your business, but now I can suggest Lithium if I ever meet anyone with cluster headaches, so that’s helpful to know.
Did you ever try magnesium instead of lithium? In contrast to lithium, magnesium is not toxic and in general beneficial to health, including both nervous and cardiovascular systems. One issue with magnesium is that high dosage needed for headache prevention produces a strong laxative effect (tolerance of magnesium in terms of its laxative effect can vary significantly between individuals).
As one of six moderators of this forum, I want to welcome you to this forum. This is the most active fruit forum on the internet.
People naturally draw conclusions with limited information. I’m really glad you got a chance to clarify and clear things up about your video.
You’ll see in the archives there has been a fair amount of discussion about pawpaws. I, myself have two pawpaw trees and look forward to the fruit every year. The fragrance, flavor, nothing else is like it.
Again, glad you jumped in here and hope you have more comments in the future.
Thanks for explaining what the cause is,Neal.
Now I’m concerned about the Lithium.A friend who is bipolar,took it for about twenty years,because it was the only thing that worked at the time.
Eventually it wiped out his kidneys and he had to go on dialysis and get on the waiting list for an organ.
Hopefully they will find a better and safer treatment for your headaches.
Thanks also for your research and contribution with this interesting fruit. Brady
to be honest I am not suggesting you eat a bunch of pawpaw, and will most likely eat it in considerable moderation myself. That said, my point was there’s just a lot of holes yet; yes its toxic but there doesn’t appear to be much info on absorption and excretion, the levels one would expect to be acutely or chronically toxic, or what kind of fruit intake would be required to exhibit either one. It is toxic in rats, but is it in humans (I suspect it is) and more importantly, would you actually see toxic levels from normal consumption?
Yes it was shown to be more toxic than MPP+ (if I remember correctly, that was the chemical most famously publicized from a bad batch of impure meth and a forensic tv show’s “case of the frozen addict” episode) in acute studies, and that’s enough that like I said I won’t be sitting down to pounds of the stuff all fall, but that doesn’t address chronic toxicity (which is likely far lower for either compound) and it also doesn’t address human intake and excretion/“bioburden” and what sort of levels you would have in your system from say 1 Overleese per day for 2 months out of the year. It could be far, far lower than what would actually prove toxic, and I’m not endorsing any poisons, but your mitochondria are exposed to low-level toxins constantly…not a good reason to bath in them, but context is important. Methanol, or specifically formate, is a mitochondrial poison. And you make it, every minute of every day, in your own body. Just at levels far lower than induce mitochondrial disregulation and cell death. (except see “Cuban nutritional amblyopia” if you’re curious, there was nutritional cases of what looked like methanol toxicity that were actually folks with too many smokes, too few B vitamins, and overall poor nutritional health)
Like I said, there’s a lot that just isn’t known. Given pawpaw is such a niche fruit, I doubt there ever will be.
But for now there’s folks claiming the sky is falling and others saying it is utterly harmless, and I don’t think there’s enough info to firmly decamp on either side of this particular river…
@RNeal you’ve already seen my posts here suggesting that, to me, it made no sense for people to be speculating about your health and especially about the cause of your health issues if you had any. I’m so glad you took the time to come here and open up bout something so personal - which happens to support my position on the matter.
But most of all, I just want to do what @Olpea did, which is to welcome you to growingfruit.org. You are something of a superstar around here! Lots and lots of people talk about and appreciate all your years of hard work in this field. I myself have 2 of your pawpaws and am proud of them. There are endless discussions about paw paws and paw paw growing here, and I’m sure you would enjoy reading them all-especially since you are mentioned in some of them. In fact, I would honestly think that there would be a lot of things on this web site that would interest you and bring you some enjoyment. It is an extremely active fruit growing site with lots of great people with all levels of experience. Don’t blame the whole site because a few people made some unfounded assumptions about you and your health and paw paws. We are a great group of people overall and would love to see you come around more often! And btw, I think your explanation here will go a long way in getting the word out to the rest of the fruit world who might think pawpaws caused your tremors. People here are active in many other fruit growing groups.
Thank you! I’ve never taken that form, but the regular vitamin kind do help prevent them some… I just also get the side effect you mentioned, badly! I should try different forms and see which I can handle the large enough doses of.
(I’m on other meds for them, too, of course, which help keep the intensity down a lot, but unfortunately the class that helps so many people with migraines doesn’t help mine.)
Mr. Peterson, I’m another member here who is a huge fan of your work! I didn’t want to seem starstruck, lol. I’ve actually never eaten a pawpaw yet but I’m growing two trees My neighbors remember wild ones from their youth and are quite excited, too.
All you have to do is read online the trustworthy sites about cluster headaches. No where is magnesium a palliative / prophylaxis for cluster headaches. I have been under the care of a respected neurologist for 9 years.
The tremors didn’t start for about 3 years.
It is so refreshing when I take a drug holiday, and am free of the side effects, even tho the headaches return. After a week I have to resume the medicine because of the pain.
Maybe you can let others know the nature of my illness, is unrelated to pawpaw consumption, in my doctors opinion. And in my opinion.
It’s good to have you here @RNeal. I live about 10 minutes away from where you tasted your first Paw Paw. At least that’s what I’ve read. The last few years the University has had a Paw Paw party each fall when the fruit comes into season. People interested can stop by and sample the fruit and also get info on how to propagate the seeds. It was the first place I tasted the fruit. Hopefully you choose the stick around and share some of your wisdom with us all.
Scott, it’s time for us to communicate on FB messenger. Are we friends there? Send me an FB friend request and we’ll go from there. Then it will be easier to talk about everything.
Hey Neal, my apologies for causing you this grief. I should have worded the post better. I would agree your tremors are not related to Parkinson’s. Those tremors are easy to tell. Your tremors do look drug induced. Sorry to hear you have to endure these side effects. Having known people with Parkinson’s disease I still cannot get myself to eat pawpaws.
I was very interested in them, until I found out about the toxin. Well that is not totally true. Not until I looked at what the toxin does, did I decide this fruit is not for me. I over reacted mostly due to my own personal experience with people I know passing from this terrible disease. Thanks for posting to clear things up. But this is far from the only site, as many have noticed and commented on your video.
@RNeal I also wondered about a pawpaw/tremor connection in an earlier post here without using names or video. My apologies to you Neal and can’t fathom what it’s like to endure those headaches. I hope there’s a cure out there somewhere. I imagine you’ve explored meditation, possible stress causes. I have endured much pain in my life from stress induced pain syndromes.
Cluster headaches have no cure. I think medicine would not hide this information if they knew it.
The disease is complex and purely understood. The symptoms are well known: typically the headache strikes in the middle of sleep, at the onset of REM. It is always one-side of the head, centered on the eyeball from which the pain radiates to the entire half of the head, the teeth, the neck, copious tears, nasal discharge, red skin flushing. The pain is excruciating and lasts on average an hour. Some men have committed suicide rather than go on.
Most sufferers are men; the headaches occur EVERY night for a month or more, then cease and return 12 months later. For some people, such as myself, it is chronic daily, not seasonal. Scientists understand that the malady arises from a malfunction of the hypothalmus, and that the pain is mediated through the trigeminal nerve.
There are approaches to aborting the headache in the first 5 minutes of onset. There are about 6 drugs that can be effective as prophylactics (discovered by trial and error for each person). No cure exists, although LSD shows promise. But LSD is illegal, even for scientists to test.
Per your questions: I meditate, have for decades, but it has no effect for my headaches. The only known trigger is alcohol, which I avoid. We hear that for certain painful conditions, marijuana is a solution. I seldom partake but knew there would be no harm in smoking. So one morning upon waking the headache was there; I went to a friend’s house and we smoked. Ha ha! Now I had a major headache and was high at the same time. I don’t recommend it.
I am suspecting that there may be other compounds in the Annonaceae fruits that can counteract the effects of annonacin. Many fruits often come with various nutraceuticals that when purified for one substance can be extremely toxic or highly medicinal, but when taken together they are in harmony that prevents the toxicity of one type to be fully expressed. Leaves of A. muricata or graviola or soursop have been used to treat cancer even though it has annonacin.
The annonacin content of various Annonaceae fruits have kept me from making wines out of them.
The FDA has published the annonacin content of various Annonaceae fruits, and Cherimoya seemed to have the lowest content so I may make wine out of them one of these days.
Nonetheless, since the cat is out of the bag, efforts should be made to consider the annonacin content of pawpaws as one of the selection criteria when developing new cultivars.
My neighbors remember wild ones from their youth and are quite excited, too.