Matt,
I’ll be interested in seeing the long-term survival of your chocolate and coffeecake. I nearly lost my NA Asians this winter, so now I’m paranoid that you’re really pushing it on hardiness in our zone. But I would love to add those to my collection if they’ll last so I’m rooting for you.
This is a same year Asian persimmon hybrid interstem graft. The interstem is shorter than I like, but it was all I had to match the scion/interstem/rootstock diameter.
I have another field graft almost identical to this one with a different upperstock, this other graft is not showing any signs of life on the interstem or upperstock. I guess that’s the way it goes sometimes.
Also, I did about 20 or so bench grafts similar to these, but with longer interstems for the most part. All the Rosseyanka interstems are growing fine, only 1 or 2 of the upperstocks are leafing out. I am not brave enough to cut off the interstem growth to “push” the upperstocks. I figure I can graft over to the desired cultivar upperstock next year.
Edit: I felt like a crazy person typing the above. I am so glad to be part of a community that shares my interest in wacky things like this.
Nice job. Never have tried that specific graft, but I like the effect.
Looks like all 25 bench grafts I planted directly into my orchard are good. And about 50 out of 55 in my nursery. I’m ecstatic!
Not sure if you have, but you might want to stake those persimmons. I’ve had a few experiences where persimmon grafts took off too quickly and snapped off in the wind.
I did a first pass on half of the peach varieties I’m trying to graft this year.
I did clefts of Early Crawford, Indian Free, Rio Oso Gem, and Athena (permission obtained from CRFG).
I also did a T-bud with Black Boy.
I would have liked to have executed these earlier in the season, but was unable to due to circumstances beyond my control. I lost a few varieties due to wood molding over in the fridge (Springcrest and Late Crawford; damn, I really wanted those).
Tomorrow I’ll do the rest:
-Clayton
-Silver Logan
-Mericrest (nect)
-Raritan Rose
-Zin Dai Jiu Bao
-Pallas
-Foster
-Sanguine Tardeva
-Sanguine de Chateauneuf
Thanks. We had a storm blow though and I did worry about the wind…but did I think to stake them?? Nah…senior moments! 
Second that recommendation. Stake or lose it. I had to regraft several bark grafts again this year that Santa Ana winds snapped off mid summer.
Why using an interstem ? Do you fear incompatibility with american persimmon ?
Part of me feels these subjects ruffle feathers. I once read a Pomona article stating there are no Kakis that have lived longer than 30 years on American rootstock, yet these trees are very long lived when grown on Kaki rootstock. Some people feel this is a climate issue, but I think there is more going on. Using Kaki or Lotus as a rootstock is not an option for me for various reasons.
To answer your question, perhaps it is incompatibility. I don’t like using the name for this syndrome that others have used. I feel some of these tree deaths are merely due to cold damage from pushing climate zone limits. Generally, incompatibility for persimmons looks similar to cold damage - the tree fails to wake up in the Spring and dead upperstock. Using these hybrid interstems or even rootstocks is just a theory at this point. I have never heard of this syndrome happening with the hybrids, but they are new. I have heard of the hybrids being killed my cold.
Also, perhaps these interstems will impart more vigor on some of my slower growing Kakis. The diameter of my Rosseyanka interstems are usually slightly greater than the diameter of the American understock for the first several years of the trees life. These hybrids WANT to grow. Also, even if the Kaki grafts fail I still have an awesome persimmon tree to fall back on. I think it will be very interesting to see what happens in 20 or 30 years.
Hello,
For me there is possible incompatibility with hybrids.
Here a new hybrid of persimmon missed on rosseyhanka. Ter this hybrid had 50% of rosseyhanka. …
Wé can clearly see the incompatibility reaction that is produced.
Thé same day on thé same tree I made 4 chip bidding this varieties with immédiate rejection and another of another variété hybrid that took without reaction
I’m having some difficulty understanding what you mean, sorry. I think I have the general idea.
I don’t see anything in the first photo that merits an immediate rejection. Also, I’ve never heard or seen an “immediate” rejection. It’s difficult to convey tone in text, so please don’t take my questions or comments the wrong way. The only thing I can see in the first photo is oozing sap, which is completely normal for actively growing persimmons. All my persimmon bark grafts ooze, and they usually all take regardless of the species grafted or being grafted onto. It’s the long term compatibility that is my concern.
Excuse my translater, because of my bad English, I’ve been reading you for 3 years, but do not participate.
The flow of sap can actually exist without the graft failing. There sas an immediate reaction or black flow, thé rootstock necrosis around the chip and
3 days layer the chip was black in turn.
Thé incompatibility sas flagrant. It’s hard to show in this picture.
Just to say that hybride rare ont tué solution to avoid incompatibilities.
I got up to the mountain today to finish my peach grafting. No sooner do I execute 2 grafts… then we get a freak rainstorm for 90 minutes. What a frustrating waste of time.
Bummer…when that happens to me it only rains enough to make me wrap up and get inside and then wet enough not want to go back out. Not enough for plants to get a thorough soaking.
No worries I enjoy your input and hope you continue to contribute. I wish I could speak another language.
I knew this subject would ruffle feathers. I really don’t want this to sound like a competition. Unfortunately, with the information age comes a lot of anecdotal observations turned into facts. I feel obligated to clear the air when my experiences prove the complete opposite. I think a few failed chip buds of one cultivar does not indicate an incompatibility. I am not saying it isn’t incompatible, but I am saying there could be other causes (infected/bad scion wood, cambium misalignment, etc…). I have successfully grafted hundreds of persimmons. These grafts include many Asians, hybrids (of varying percentages), a male hybrid (I have a male 50/50 Rosseyanka for future breeding) and pure Americans. I have grafted onto hybrid interstems, a few lotus and many pure Americans. In fact, I have grafted onto both 60 chromosome and 90 chromosome Americans. The point of all this is to say my success at grafting, regardless of technique, hovers around 90% with all the combinations listed above. The failures are usually linked to low vigor rootstock or extremely high temperatures. Perhaps you did observe an immediate rejection as described. I have never seen this happen even after inspection of all my failures. The sap always turns a black/brown color after a day or so in warm weather. For me, the sap color is not an indication of rejection.
I believe you stated hybrids are not the answer to incompatibilities? The lifespan of these Asian persimmons on American rootstock seem somewhat short to me. Once again, the hybrid theory is just that. For me, it makes far more sense to try the interstem than not to.
Here is a 60 chromosome male persimmon top-worked to a multitude of hybrids, Asian (some on interstems, some not) and American persimmons. This is one of the two trunks of the tree. I will get better photos this weekend when I’m at the farm. This year I probably did over 40 grafts on it, not a single failure.
In between rainstorms, today I grafted:
-Silver Logan
-Mericrest
-Raritan Rose
-Zin Dai
-Pallas
-Sanguine Tardeva
-Sanguine de Chateauneuf
