All things tractors thread

Saw this today: http://www.startribune.com/for-tech-weary-midwest-farmers-40-year-old-tractors-now-a-hot-commodity/566737082/

They hint toward it, but donā€™t say out loud that people are avoiding Tier 4 diesel engines.

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Iā€™ve had great luck with my Kubota L3800 so far. Only gets 30-50 hours of work each year but has been reliable. Would buy another without hesitation

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I have heard anecdotes of people choosing older tech diesels for some time now, but this may be the first Iā€™ve seen it spoken of in the press. Not surprised, some of the manufactures (JD and others) have made it even harder to work on your own machine than the car makers lately. Perhaps this will be a wakeup call to themā€¦

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Thatā€™s a nice thought Steve, but I doubt it will happen. I suspect tractor manufacturers like producing tractors which only specialists can work on, as long as all manufacturers are under the same rules. That brings in a larger piece of the pie to the dealer network. More profitable dealers mean the manufacturer can squeeze them harder. More expensive repairs for farmers mean they will trade equipment sooner - also good for the manufacturer.

John Deere grabbed so much of the market share early on because their equipment was reliable and they made them simple so that just about any farmer could work on them with the tools on hand.

Those days are long gone.

Just like manufacturing, farming has traditionally required a continual increase in size to remain competitive. Iā€™m not saying thatā€™s a good thing, just saying what is.

Like manufacturing, when the margins are small, you have to produce more faster with less labor. That means big machinery to farm lots and lots of acres really fast. Those guys donā€™t care so much about working on their own equipment. The name of the game to stay in business is always bigger and faster. It means not trying to work on old smaller equipment to keep it running.

I read an article the other day about a dairy farmer family in NY struggling to make ends meet. They were even on food stamps. The article blamed it on low milk prices (Milk prices are low, as people are drinking more substitute milk products like almond and soy juice.) But the real issue was the folks in the article only farmed like 300 acres and had something like 60 head of dairy cows. Thatā€™s not enough volume to make it in a low margin industry.

Itā€™s economically driven. Assuming a fair return to the farmer of $50/ac profit, someone farming 300 acres only makes $15K. The farmer farming 2000 acres makes $100K at the same margin. ā€œSmallā€ farmers like that, who want to work on their own equipment, will eventually be out of the game. Or if they can make it to retirement, their acreage will be swallowed up by larger farmers.

Itā€™s the same thing in just about any low margin industry. I remember talking once with a commercial ZTR mower salesman. I asked why the new commercial ZTRs donā€™t have grease zerks for the brearing housings which run the blades. He told me owners donā€™t want to have to grease the mowers. The owners canā€™t make any money if their help is standing around greasing equipment. They want their help on the mowers cutting grass as fast as they can. Thatā€™s why new commercial mowers will cut at 15 mph. More volume - faster.

Itā€™s the same thing in machining. The equipment is always bigger and faster. If you own a machine shop and want to stay in business making widgets. You have to make the widgets faster and faster. If youā€™ve ever witnessed how fast some of these machines move, itā€™s mind boggling. They push the feed rates so hard the life of the cutters is sometimes measured in minutes. In the end, it doesnā€™t matter how many cutters they go through if they can get 20% more production out the door.

Hereā€™s a vid on the manufacturing mindset. Most farmers arenā€™t as brash as the guy in the video, but most farmers recognize the principle.

Not defending anything, just pointing out thatā€™s what it takes to keep the +7bil. people in goods and services to the level weā€™re at today.

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You are probably right @Olpea, it wont change the mindset at JD or any of the other larger players anytime soon. However in the long run it may. When some of the older machines start edging up in price and cutting into new sales, we will see. It is similar to the 70ā€™s, when the big three auto makers didnā€™t take the Japanese threat seriously, and Toyota and Honda were able to capture a large chunk of that market. Not exactly the same issues but similar in terms of customer abuse,

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I can only hope you are right. In KC there is a head remanufacturer that does a lot of business restoring older diesel engine heads for independent truckers. The truckers donā€™t want to go to the 4 tier engines, so they just keep rebuilding their old ones.

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I know exactly how that guy is pushing for more speed and production. As you know Mark, I grow 3/4 acre of bell peppers which I have the market for every one I produce and 5x more. I am always looking for a better way to produce more and higher quality peppers with less input in time, fertilizer, and chemicals. I think you do the same because the people who want your peaches, my peppers, will get those things if they need them. I want them to get it from me. Thatā€™s why I spend the late nights researching, thinking, and planning, itā€™s why I push my suppliers to have the latest and greatest, and why I spend money to educate myself on the latest thinking around my crop. As commercial growers we have to.
One of the reasons we find most vehicles so difficult to work on is the computer controls necessary to meet ridiculous air quality standards, especially for the limited ag market. The people who rail against big farms also set impossible standards that only the big farmers can meet. An example of unintended consequenecs.

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Well said Phil. Iā€™m sure youā€™ve looked at the new FSMA rules. I was talking to a friend the other day who said some farms hire one full time person whose only job is to make sure the farm is in compliance with the FSMA rules.

Re: computer controls

I have my orchard tractor made about year 2000. No computer on board. I plan to drive that one till I canā€™t get parts, or until me, or it, dies - whatever comes first.

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Interesting article. I have a John Deere 2040 (post #1), built in 1981 in Germany, and itā€™s been pretty reliable, other than when the water pump went out and caused the fan to impale itself in the radiator (post 148). Thankfully I was able to repair it myself without too much trouble.

I replaced the oil, filter, and both circular air filters last year, which was pretty easy. The air filters arenā€™t cheap, but Iā€™m glad the parts (all JD) are still available. I had to drive about 40 miles to a dealer, but thatā€™s not too bad. Weā€™re 20 miles from anything here anyways.

The hydraulic fluid (and filter) will probably need to be replaced at some point, not looking forward to that, thatā€™s a lot of fluid to drain and replace.

I did have an issue starting it a couple years ago when it got down in the teens, but that was remedied by plugging in the block heater for an hour. Started right up after that, no big deal. Still have the same batteries in it that were in it when I bought it four years ago. So glad Iā€™m not at the mercy of electronic controls.

Granted I only use it maybe ten times a year- one day each for plowing and disking, a couple days for grading or spreading gravel and the rest bush hogging.

I donā€™t see a lot of newer rigs around here, either. Folks seem to like the older ones better. Of course, there isnā€™t much big scale farming going on, so there prob no need for newer equipment. My neighbor has a newish compact Mahindra, and he seems to have quite a bit of problems with it. But that may something to do with the brand, and not the controls.

I like mine just the way it is, and one thing that I look forward to when I get on it is hearing that old 3 cylinder fire up and the throaty ā€˜blom-blom-blomā€™ exhaust note.

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I have a Mahindra M75. I had a 2555 and it was a lemon. They have me what I owed when I traded it on my M75 since they had tons of problems with that model.

The M75 has been very good. The motor is phenomenal. My neighbor has a 60 horse Kubota and has expressed how he wished he had my Mahindra motor. Good thing Iā€™m friends with the owner where I bought the Mahindra though.

The warning switchā€™s are a real PITA. They are the only trouble Iā€™ve had. Pressure switches going bad, water in fuel switch. Service light. And every switch and light makes it beep. Iā€™ve fixed them all myself and they havenā€™t been pricy at all but they are the most annoying things ever! It drives me crazy.

Iā€™m very happy with the tractor. All the transmission, suspension, and hydraulics are pretty old school and I like that. They just donā€™t break. But boy they can keep all the electronic stuffā€¦

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My tractor (Massey 4225) has been pretty problem free (2500 hrs.) but last Nov. the injector pump went out. Removing the injector pump requires removing the water pump. But when I tried to remove the water pump, there was a frozen bolt holding it on. The bolt wouldnā€™t move for nothing. It was a long bolt which went through the water pump, the timing cover, the timing case, and finally into the block. Heat and penetrating oil did nothing. It was too far away from where the bolt was stuck.

I cut/chiseled the head of the bolt off to get the water pump off. Then welded a nut on the frozen bolt and tried again. Still just wanted to twist the bolt and wouldnā€™t break loose. Tried all the tricks (tapping on the bolt, etc.)

So had to remove the timing cover and the timing case - the whole front end. Timing gears, everything. Finally I was able to weld a new nut on the frozen bolt. I heated the bolt till it almost melted, let it air cool, and it squeaked out.

I was sure Iā€™d have to drill the bolt out, but I didnā€™t have to.

Here is a pic with the front of the engine gone and a bunch of paper towels/rags stuffed in all the holes.

It quit and we had to leave it parked in mud (fun stuff :unamused:).

Iā€™ve never taken the front of a diesel motor apart before. Putting it back together, it was really hard to get the timing gears correct, because the motor has to be at exactly top dead center of the compression stroke on the number one piston. I used an indicator with a rod down in the fuel injector hole to measure the piston height. Here are the gears back on and lined up.

I finally got it all back together, then figured out the starter solenoid went bad. So I am once again waiting on parts.

I still havenā€™t built a fire in this thing. Itā€™s all back together except for the starter solenoid Iā€™m waiting on. Iā€™m having some trouble getting all the fuel lines primed with the hand pump. I have all the nuts loose on the fuel lines and thought Iā€™d crank the motor a little bit to see if I can get them primed that way.

The fuel pump cost me about a grand to get rebuilt. Perkins engines are good, but the parts are very expensive.

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Bob,

My closest dealer is about that far away, but I never drive. Itā€™s cheaper just to have them UPS it. All the dealers will do it. The UPS charges are cheaper than I can drive it.

Itā€™s generally recommended to replace hydraulic fluid and filters about every 500 hours. Itā€™s generally fairly easy to replace. You may need a few gaskets, if you have to clean some screens, but maybe not. Your operator manual will tell you how to do it.

Sounds like you use OEM parts/fluids. Thatā€™s always safe. In case you want to save some money, you can use non-oem hydraulic oil. Just make sure itā€™s good quality compatible stuff. Donā€™t use cheap oils from Tractor Supply. I use Champion 4000 universal hydraulic fluid when I can get it.

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I feel for you regarding that repair, looks and sounds like a bear to do. Iā€™m so glad I didnā€™t have to tear a lot out to do my repair. A lot of tedious work, but not too difficult. The water pump looked like the original, but it wasnā€™t too hard to get it off. I used the original pulley because it was okay, and I didnā€™t want to buy a new one for about $150. So, I had to have a neighbor with a press to get the pulley off, and then push it back on to the new WP. Overall, my total costs were about $450- water pump, radiator, fan, two hoses and coolant.

Yah, getting those timing gears together are a bit important! I did a timing belt change on my 2003 Accord V6 last spring, and it was a bear to do. The car had about 185k miles on it and needed changed. You basically have to tear just about everything off the left side of the engine to do it. At first, I didnā€™t want to attempt it because if itā€™s done wrong you can end up with a big boat anchor. But, after watching a few videos on YouTube, I thought I could do it. The hardest part of the job was getting that crank bolt off, itā€™s torqued on really tight, and I had to use a special weighted socket and an air impact gun to get it off. You have to change the belt, water pump, two small pulleys and a hydraulic tensioner. It took me almost two weeks because I did the work outside in the open and it was raining quite a bit. I also had to replace an engine mount, too. I was very deliberate putting that new belt back on. Itā€™s a dual cam engine, so those cams and the crank had to be at TDC. I marked those points on the old belt and transferred them to the new one.

After I had got everything put back together and the battery hooked up, I had to crank it up. Talk about a ā€œpuckerā€ moment! There was a little squeak at start up, but it ran like a champ. My wife drives it to work every week day, and itā€™s still going good. Honda makes great engines, but their trannies, not so much.

Anyway, I got it done, and maybe saved myself $1000 if a dealer or mechanic did it. @Steve333 and I corresponded thru PMā€™s, he was a big help and encourager. Many thanks to him! The TB kit was about $160, mount was $30, coolant was about $35, so I saved about $800, besides my own labor, of course.

Regarding the filters, I might try that next time. But, I like the drive over there. I want to use oem filters, but fluids, not necessary. I asked them about their hydraulic fluid, itā€™s called Hygard, and it costs $70 for a 5 gallon jug! They were really pushing it on me, but I know thereā€™s other fluids out there that will do the job. It just has to meet J-14 standards. I noticed Tractor Supply has some fluids with that standard, and glad they got rid of that old 303 fluid they carried.

I got the oem tranny filter, it came with a new gasket. The air filters were about $60 for both of them, not cheap, oil filter was about $8. For oil, I used Shell Rotella T4 15w-40 diesel oil. Seems to work okay, the tractor doesnā€™t seem to burn any oil.

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I know what you mean. This tractor had 3 crank bolts to remove. They were eye busters to get off.

Congrats on the Accord. Glad Steve could help you. He does know a lot about auto mechanics.

I may have mentioned it before, but if you plan to do a lot of work on your tractor, you might consider trying to find a shop manual for it. I found a used shop manual for my tractor on ebay. I wouldnā€™t consider trying to tear into it without it. They give you all kinds of details which would be hard to find elsewhere (torque values, etc.).

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The bolt socket I used is heavy, weighs about 2lb. The theory behind it is simple physics, more weight combined with the air gun means more torque (f = m x a) on the bolt. It took a couple tries with my 150lb donut compressor. Thing is, you only use it once, but it was worth it. Iā€™ve heard all kinds of horror stories about getting that bolt off with a regular socket and breaker bars, heating the bolt, etc. I didnā€™t use it to reattach the new bolt, I had to use a three foot extension and three foot breaker bar for that task. Forty pounds of torque, then another 60 degree turn, that was tough. Got it to about 45 degrees, and it wouldnā€™t budge anymore. Still on there, hasnā€™t moved yet.

Hereā€™s a pic of the socket, if youā€™re interested.

https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-77080-Harmonic-Balancer-Socket/dp/B00RGNCV1U/ref=asc_df_B00RGNCV1U/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312373636797&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3629362343238652092&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9014459&hvtargid=pla-437104066017&psc=1

I have an ownerā€™s manual, it shows how to change the tranny fluid and filter. But, yah, I should get a service manual.

Sounds like a bugger to get off. Also sounds like you got the right tools.

I learned a long time ago, having the right tools makes all the difference. Iā€™ve struggled with things that took 3 or 4 hours trying to use the wrong tool, when it should have only taken a few minutes.

Because you mentioned it, I was interested and read of some of the problems people were having with the Honda bolt. I read the bolt is torqued to 185 lbs. It can take considerably more than that to remove, if itā€™s been on there a while. Part of the problem I read about is people using small 1/2 drive tools to remove that bolt. Something like that takes at least 3/4" drive tools. Iā€™ve taken some tough bolts off like that off a motor grader. As I recall some of those were torqued to 4 or 500 lbs. A 7ā€™ cheater with heavy tools that wonā€™t flex will generally remove that stuff.

Of course an impact is easier on things because of the hammering action, as long as itā€™s a heavy enough impact. Impact guns are generally way over-rated, btw. In other words, a 1000 lb. 1/2" impact wrench generally wonā€™t deliver anywhere near that amount of torque.

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Well, I heard or read about folks using long cheater/breaker bars, and still not being able to get the bolts off. Some would use a torch to heat the bolt, use penetrating oil, etc and still no worky.

Iā€™m not a strong guy, and bouncing up and down on a long extension and breaker bar didnā€™t seem too safe to me, so I sought an alternative.

I got the Lisle socket from eBay, it was a knock off, for about $20. I had borrow one of my neighborā€™s air gun, I donā€™t have one yet. Brought it home, put a heavy duty adapter on the socket and popped it in the gun. My compressor is a 6 gallon pancake type, not real hefty, so I was worried it wouldnā€™t work.

I turned it on, and cranked it up to about 120lb, and hooked up the gun to the line. Hit the bolt a couple times, no dice. I checked the gauge, it had dropped a bit, so I waited it to charge back up and tried again. Nothing. So, this time I cranked it up to the max about 150lb and waited a bit. Hit the bolt and within a few seconds, Whirrrr! Off it came! What a relief. After that, a lot of work, but not too bad, just had to be careful. Saved myself a lot of money.

Now, I need to get my own air gun. Any recommendations? I donā€™t know what you mean by a motor grader.


I used it to build terraces.

Air impacts are more powerful than electric. The problem with air impacts is that you have to have big lines and big capacity to deliver the amount of air needed to get the max torque out of the gun. If you donā€™t have big air equipment itā€™s wasting money to go with air. Iā€™ve owned a couple of impact wrenches and neither one would deliver the amount of torque rated. Air impacts are good if you have a big shop compressor, but most people donā€™t.

Electric impacts have been improving and continue to get stronger. Generally (as with all tools) price = better quality. If I were buying an electric impact to get stubborn bolts/nuts off, Iā€™d probably go with something like a good 3/4" electric impact.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004YOGQ?tag=tools1st-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

If I was planning to use the tool for speed, Iā€™d probably go with one of the new cordless 1/2" drive impacts. Again bigger price generally = better tool.

I rarely use any tools less than 1/2" drive. I have some 3/8" drive tools to fit in tight places. I really donā€™t know why they make 1/4" drive tools. I see 1/4" drive socket sets for sale occasionally and have to wonder who buys them? Bob the Builder? What are they going to do with them, disassemble a plastic engine?

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I would call that yellow ā€˜Championā€™ a maintainer.

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