This post parallels my other recent post on Ukrainian hybrids.
It has been suggested (and I agree) that some hybrid varieties might benefit from one more additional round of crossing with D. Virginiana. For example, JT-02 has (IMO) an enhanced Kaki-ish flavor that it still somewhat mild and could use some spice. It has a texture that can be watery and could use some body. And it is somewhat late to ripen and could use some acceleration. All of these deficits might be remedied by one more cross with DV.
It would be simple enough to pollinate JT-02 using a male-flowering DV variety. But there are dozens of choices, beginning with Early Golden and continuing through generations of its descendants.
Does anyone have a view as to the best pollen source? Iām looking for a male-flowering variety that produces tasty fruit, ripens early, and is firm textured. Iām assuming that all DVs will be suitably cold hardy.
I have used Jerry Lehman hardy male 400-5 but most of the crossed seedlings are still young and have not produced yet. I gave the scion to Dax and Dax passed it on to Lucky @Lucky_P. If you are interested to have another hardy hybrid male then you can ask Lucky for the scionwood.
According to my notes, F-100 is Morris Burton x George. Does that sound right? That would seem to create a bias toward a small fruit, as MB is quite small.
George is roughly 1/2 Early Golden that we know of from the female ancestors. Most of the male ancestors are unknown but probably include some Early Golden. The combination of Morris Burton and Early Golden seems OK; H63A is Morris Burton x Early Golden.
@jrd51 - Iād have to dig out notes, but suspect that you are correct - and I may not even have a listing of the parentage behind F-100. I got it, originally, because the late Lon Rombough opined that it was a ābetterā polygamodioeicious male than āSzukisā.
My F-100 is a fairly young treeā¦ has been blooming for about 3 years, but has not set any fruit, so I canāt attest to its āfruitfulnessā.
If you are introducing DV genetics for cold hardiness, it would be worth trying to get scion from Buzzās hardy male. He grew a ton of persimmons up in VT and few survived. Might be better off getting a hardier than avg DV if you want to increase hardiness of your proposed hybrid. I think he has a Female DV as well if you wanted to have a parallel breeding line with a hybrid male.
Cold hardiness is not my main objective, though other forum members have suggested that it should be. For my purposes, any hybrid legitimately hardy to -10 F is hardy enough. More than that is nice to have but not essential.
My main objectives are (1) to pull ripening earlier for any large, tasty, but late-ripening varieties such as Kolgospnytsya; and/or (2) to add flavor and improve texture for any watery, mild Kaki-flavored varieties such as JT-02.
That said, itās not clear to me that using a 100% DV male is the right strategy. Using a 63% DV hybrid male such as Universal or Bozhyi Dar might be the best way to preserve positive traits selected by the Ukrainians.
Understandable, I would assume Buzzās selections would be earlier ripening, but it has not been confirmed. I remember asking Cliff how many hybrid seeds were males and he said āmost of themā. One concern Id have going hybrid x hybrid would be a number of seedlings getting mostly kaki traits/lack hardiness. Since genetics arenāt really percentages, but percentages can give a rough idea on what you have. Since many of the seedlings you attempt might be duds a shotgun approach might be better. Plant out as much hybrid seed as possible directly outdoors and track which parents produce hardy enough offspring. Might give some insight on what your ideal parents would be. Kassandra is really the only hybrid I have enjoyed eating so far. Most of the others have been bland(I have not tasted them all).
Again, youāre focusing on cold hardiness, which is not my priority. I care about fruit quality and timely ripening. To test these traits as quickly as possible (assuming I get that far), I imagine germinating seeds then grafting scion wood to established trees. I think Iāll be able to ripen fruit 2-3 years after planting seeds vs perhaps 5-7 years growing out the seedings. I may āplant out as much hybrid seed as possibleā but only to create scion wood.
Since my winters are not that cold ā never -10 F or worse ā I will not be able to test the boundaries of cold tolerance here. The best I can do here is to develop some early ripening, great tasting (maybe non-astringent) hybrid fruit, using the building blocks available to me.
Right the point is not to really find something super hardy, but obviously weed out what is not hardy at all. Might give some insights, and funtion as a low stakes progeny test. Sooner you plant the sooner you can harvest. I havent tested it myself but I have been told that Kaki dominant hybrid seedlings have green stems and DV dominant seedlings have red stems, so if you are looking for hybrids you could potentially cull a good amount of seedlings that way(or at least separate them to confirm/refute the claim). How many seeds do you plan on planting to be able to graft buds onto a larger tree to accerate fruiting for evaluation? I would think youd at least want a hundred seeds(ideally more) to be able to see enough diversity in your cross(es). Not my monkeys or my circus but from what I understand about plant breeding its better to have a large sample size, and cull heavily based on what you are looking for. I dont think making the perfect cross and planting 10 seeds will give you what you are looking for.
Iāll never have the time or the space to plant, grow and evaluate100 or more seedlings from each of maybe a dozen promising crosses. That may be the right approach, but it aināt gonna happen here. If anyone likes my proposed crosses and does have the resources, he or she can do it instead.
But Iām not looking for āthe perfect cross.ā Instead, Iād like just a few of the following:
Luotiantianshi x Bozhyi Dar or Universal, just to test whether C-PCNA genetics can produce non-astringency in a hybrid.
JT-02 x Bozhyi Dar or Universal, just to test whether some hybrid (mainly DV) genetics can produce earlier ripening, drier texture, and/or enhanced flavor in the children of JT-02. Even 1 out of 3 would be OK.
Kolgospnytsya or Stepova Krasunya x Universal or Early Golden, just to test whether a large, tasty but late ripening hybrids can produce earlier ripening offspring, without becoming unacceptably small.
I donāt need any of the resulting progeny to be the best hybrid persimmon ever. I just want proof of concept in the form of marginal improvement. Optimization can come later.
I do have some more space for another 30 seedlings for trial if you have the crossed seeds sometimes in the future. Btw. The universal leaf looks like the normal hybrid persimmon leaf. I didnāt not see any character of the Lotus persimmon leaf in them. I can take some photo on Sunday when I am back in town.
Thanks. If this effort bears fruit (ha-ha), Iāll have an abundance of seeds. I may be able to plant a few dozen myself. Iāll gladly send out everything else, gratis. Of course Iāll advertise the offer. Stay tuned.
p.s. Unrelated to DV, this year I placed my potted Taishu immediately next to my in-ground JT-02. The Taishu made lots of male and female flowers and now bears fruit. The JT-02 is loaded. To my knowledge, there is no other source of male flowers around. As a precaution, I moved my potted Chocolate and Coffee Cake 200 yards downwind. So hopefully by November Iāll have a nice pile of JT-02 x Taishu seeds.
Great job! Btw I came across this restaurant on the way home from a fishing trip. First time trying a fried Bullās testicles . A very interesting textured for sure.
I have quite a nice all day sun space near my home where I take all my excess seedlings to grow out to maturity so you can feel free to add me to your extra seed list. Everything there will be open pollinated with my DV and Kakis I cannot keep at home.
