Blackberries, Raspberries and Hybrids

Thanks for this. It looks quite similar, especially the younger portions/tips. The heavy glaucous coating on the older part of the canes is what threw me off a bit because that’s a notable feature of R. ursinus, and was a bit surprised that even though it was crossed with Logan, it certainly looked different than all my other plants which also have Logan in their background, not to mention Logan itself. Given that Logan is basically R. ursinus x R. ideaus crossing it back with ursinus again is probably going to strengthen those features although one small nuance is that Logan is based off of R. ursinus ‘Aughinbaugh’ but Cascade and Pacific were Logan crossed with R. ursinus ‘Zielinski’. There’s a small note here that seems relevant:

"Seedlings from crosses of Zielinski x Logan have characteristics very similar to the native blackberry.“

Note: as an aside, it’s really quite a bummer these days that when needing clarification or history on something suitably arcane our ability to contact someone at USDA-ARS who’s as similarly OCD as the rest of us is greatly impacted by the passing of Chad Finn. It seems like everyone else at that level now basically works for Driscoll’s, Wish Farms, or the private equivalent and our “opensource” equivalents are dwindling. There’s no way that is a good thing.

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Loganberry in the cross to develop Cascade was the thorny hybrid used by Waldo. However there is also a Logan blackberry that was used in some crosses.. and after 1933 the thornless Loganberry was used to develop many blackberries and hybrids.

It is confusing on many of them which have the original Loganberry as a parent..but the photos of Cascade are obvious as to the parent.. There was talk years ago that the original thorny Loganberry was much better flavored than the thornless that is being sold today.. same can be said of thorned vs thornless Boysenberry etc.

Description from 1923
Rubus loganobaccus. Bailey Gent. Herb. 1:155. 1923.
Canes stout, terete, tomentose at length glabrescent, densely beset with straight patent prickles. Leaves 3- to 5-foliolate, petioles and petiolules densely pubescent, prickly, like most of the veins beneath; stipules subulate, hirsute; lower leaflets sessile, obliquely ovate, obtuse, terminal one roundish cordate or subtrilobate, obtuse or bluntly pointed, irregularly or doubly toothed, rather thick, dark green above with a few scattered hairs, densely grayish tomentose beneath. Flowering branches copiously prickly; leaves 3-foliolate, similar to those of the turions, only smaller; the uppermost simple, cordate. Flowers corymbose, large, bisexual, pedicels long, stout, tomentose and with patent prickles; calyx and the ovate-lanceolate, long-pointed calyx-lobes pubescent and prickly; petals large, white. Fruit elongate, red, acidulous; drupelets tomentose.

Garden origin; only known as a cultivated plant; said to have originated in the garden of Judge J. H. Logan, Santa Cruz, California. The loganberry was at first said to be a hybrid between the “common Californian dewberry” and a raspberry. There is, however, no trace of a raspberry in the character of this plant. Most likely it is a mutant offspring of R. ursinus, from which it differs only in slight details and chiefly by its bisexual flowers, but such can occasionally also be observed on R. ursinus.

Another observation from 1918-
It suffices here to give a description of the plant as it grows on the grounds of this Station.
Plants very vigorous, a stronger grower than the ordinary dewberry, semi-trailing, tender in the East, hardy in the West where the temperature does not reach zero, very productive under favorable conditions, healthy; canes medium to slender, pubescent, cylindrical, brownish red mingled with green, eglandular; prickles slender, very numerous, reddish; leaflets 3-5, broad-oval or heart-shaped resembling the raspberry, very thick, large, dull, rugose, pubescent, with finely serrate margins; petiole medium in length, rather thick. Flowers mid-season, white, in open, leafy clusters; petals roundish; pedicels long, thick, tomentose, prickly, eglandular; calyx very prickly, eglandular; calyx-lobes tomentose, bristly without, eglandular. Fruit early, clings rather tenaciously, ripens slowly; long-cylindrical-conic or ovate, large, glossy red; drupelets numerous, rather large, pubescent; core hard; flesh juicy, pleasantly sprightly at full maturity, otherwise rather acid, with a peculiar raspberry flavor, which is improved by cooking, firm enough to ship well; good in quality.

https://chathamapples.com/SmallFruitsNY/BlackDewEvol.htm#loganberry

The observation from 1923 resembles Austin Dewberry as well to me.. I have not grown true to name Loganberry but I do believe i have grown true to name Austin Dewberry which is a large reddish somewhat purple berry that makes me believe that Loganberry is possibly just another Dewberry but with good characteristics.

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Same as thornless Boysenberry, thornless Loganberry etc.. the first few years in lesser climates than optimal will take time to mature the crown that will send up thicker canes which will in turn give larger fruit. It is a many year undertaking to get optimal fruits from many of these brambles.. not unlike fruit trees that take many years to bare.. and some many years to mature to judge fruit..as early production can be lackluster.

Any small slender canes should be removed after they are dormant regardless… waste of time and energy for next years primocanes that need maximum energy from the crown..not shared with smaller canes.

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makes me believe that Loganberry is possibly just another Dewberry but with good characteristics

I thought it was already proven in the 40s that Logan is indeed a hexaploid ursinus x ideaus? I couldn’t imagine that if it were just another variant of R. ursinus (or similar) that it wouldn’t have been resolved by now by breeders and academia. It would also be at odds with Phenomenal which has a very similar background.

*Derek Jennings, the well known breeder of soft fruits, in particular the ‘Glen’ range range of raspberries, tells us how he came to raise the Tayberry when working at the Scottish Crop Research Institute, near Dundee

[..]
*
The Tayberry, of course, is essentially an improved Loganberry, and Judge Logan of California, who bred the Loganberry, had amazing beginners luck . His hobby was blackberry breeding and in 1880 he crossed Mr Auginbaugh’s blackberry with the Texas blackberry. He had a big surprise from the progeny, and his own summing up is the best : ‘in the first row I found a single lonely plant , in appearance like no other berry plant I had ever seen. It was neither a raspberry nor a blackberry but a distinctly new form.’ He gave plants to his friends who began to call the fruit ‘Mr Logan’s Berries’. Arguments about its origin raged for some 50 years, with the judge insisting that the plant was a natural hybrid involving some raspberries growing near his blackberries and Professors at the American universities maintaining that it must be a new species. The solution came from the UK in the 1940s , when Percy Thomas studied its genetics at the John Innes Institute and showed that the judge was correct.

My good fortune came when Percy Thomas was appointed Professor at the University College of Wales, Aberystwyth, where I was a student. Prof Thomas, affectionately know as PT, was a dreadful lecturer, but he shone one Saturday morning in 1949 when he described the results of his Loganberry research. His work was all about numbers of chromosomes - the threadlike structures which carry the genes like beads on a string. It turned out that Mr Auginbaugh’s blackberry had 56 chromosomes while the Loganberry had 42. Since all plants transmit only half of their number of chromosomes to their pollen and ovules, this meant that all the blackberry ovules had 28 chromosomes and that one of them must have been fertilised by a pollen grain having 14 chromosomes to give rise to the Loganberry with 42. A difficulty was that all raspberries have 14 chromosomes and hence normally produce pollen with only seven, but a rare error in development sometimes allows pollen with 14 chromosomes to be formed, and it is generally accepted that this happened in this instance.

https://www.fruitforum.net/articles/the-origin-of-the-tayberry

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Could be.. or Could have been… i dont want to go down another rabbit hole with no reward again though.

  1. I am not sure anyone currently has or grows the ‘original’ Loganberry.. Cascade is probably the closest we will see of that plant.
  2. Alot of folks like thornless Loganberry.. but it is a sport of Loganberry (or was it developed)? Just like i believe that Indian Free Peach is a sport of the Blood Peach.. which they do not taste the same.. Goldie is a sport of Heritage raspberry which seems to be very desirable but for some reason Goldie was not. etc etc.
    3)I cannot find any evidence that thornless Boysenberry is as good as thorned Boysenberry…then some folks believe that ‘Rudys Original’ is better than the other Boysenberry that is sold everywhere.
  3. I believe that if anyone would see the Austin Dewberry that i grew i could convince them that it was a Loganberry, or possibly a Wyeberry.. and if i gave them 10 guesses i dont think any would tell me that they were a Dewberry.. none of the pictures of dewberries other than those vintage pictures even come close to what it looks like to me.

Its possible that the original Loganberry was a hybrid… the writing says that it was a cross of ursinus and possibly Antwerp.. which is confusing.. but possible.. as even in the early days it was very confusing as to what was true Antwerp and what wasnt..

In the end i dont have Loganberry to grow.. and am not sure i will.. nor at this point want to honestly.

What was bees knees 100 years ago probably isnt now that i have and can grow Newberry, Kotata,Siskiyou etc.. that have Loganberry in their parentage.. but probably not as pronounced as Cascade with its limits of breeding at the time.

If someone wants to go deeper into the rabbit hole the possible candidates of Logan are Texas Early, Aughinbaugh, and some say Antwerp raspberry.. which may or may not have been in California at that time.. or true to name etc.

Where is the history of thornless Loganberry? Some sources say its a sport some say developed.. Where is the history of thornless Boysenberry? Are they the same or nearly the same?

Fun for this winter maybe.. but in the end it doesnt really matter.

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Yep, I’m not sure who actually has it or if we even have an accurate frame of reference at this point for what the original even is. The NCGR doesn’t have it and apparently doesn’t have a true to type Young either.

As far as I know there’s a sport which is chimera, similar to thornless Boysen, and a genetically thornless variant called ‘Lincoln Logan.’ Nobody knows what they really have until it starts growing new canes with thorns or simply never grows any thorns at all.

Also a chimerical sport. But there appear to be 3 main versions of Boysen. The original, aka Rudy’s Original, Boysen 43, and Riwaka’s Choice (NZ).

For me, I’m not trying to chase the absolute, ultimate, perfect berry because it doesn’t exist. There is no possible way for us to breed in every positive trait in a single variety because some traits are highly subjective and some traits are at odds with each other. One reason to grow Logan and older varieties is because they prefer that particular flavor profile, don’t want an overly “refined” berry, or just want to pay homage to history. I can tell you that wild ursinus definitely has floral overtones in its taste that seem to be lost the further away one goes from it. Also the typical average consumer today is going to bias their taste profile towards sweetness and IMO you’re likely to find more of the classic tartness (not sour) in older varieties as breeders today will silently guide their selections towards what they think commercial growers (and consumers) want, not us. Just look at blueberries, everything is about sweetness and size when some of the old school lowbush varieties already crank out complex flavor, they’re just small.

AFAIK:

Logan: R. ursinus ‘Aughinbaugh’ x R. ideaus ‘Red Antwerp’

Black Logan: R. ursinus ‘Aughinbaugh’ x R. velox ‘Texas Early / Crandall’ (likely the original desired intent of his crosses)

I’m sure you’ve read the “Will the real Boysen please stand up?” article, but there’s an associated study that actually has some more detail. I’ll just attach both. As usual in Rubus, everything is a mess.

NARBA-2019-BRAMBLE-Summer-Vol-34-Issue-2-Real-Boysen-USDA-NCGR-Article.pdf (269.9 KB)

The Importance of Being ʽBoysenʼ.pdf (487.1 KB)

Lincoln Logan.pdf (342.0 KB)

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It just occurred to me, are the thornless mutations in Austin and Logan the same mutation? I realize they occurred independently, but if Logan is the offspring of Austin, and both of them ended up with a random sport with a dominant thornless gene, I wonder if it’s the same mutation.

Good write up by the way. And idea if Lincoln Logan has any circulation in the US? I’m only aware of the Kiwis having and using it. My own thornless Logan is definitely the chimera one.

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It’s Boysen that is the offspring of Logan and Austin but for sake of the same question: I’m not sure. It sounds like it’s a common mutation in brambles - to go chimerically thornless, that is.

That’s the fun part, it’s apparently commonly sold as “thornless Loganberry” but nobody has figured out the distribution, nursery or state-wise, of who’s propagating the genetic one vs who’s propagating the chimera.

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Thanks, appreciate the right up and leads

It has also embarrassing only just occurred to me that I could ask next time I see them. See what they remember, if anything.

I doubt they mail ordered and based on what’s currently available around here is almost all Monrovia, and a few DWN. Of course the nursery a couple of miles up the road changed ownership maybe 10 years ago, so not sure what would have been available back when this was planted.

I’ve been trying a few approaches to propagating this plant, hopefully we’ll have more in a more deliberate planting

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I talked to Ison’s a few years ago and they did sell ‘the original Loganberry’.. according to them. I ordered it and received thornless Logan.. which they then replied that they switched vendors. There was a vendor on Etsy that was selling propagated plants that they obtained from Isons previous as well. Pictures of their fruit and plants were on Etsy then.. and appeared to resemble the original plant..although small fruited.

Last year i pointed towards cpplantnursery.com which sold Thorny Loganberry.. i messaged them and they confirmed that they were indeed thorny loganberry. I received my order DOA.. and they refunded me. It appears that they are now out of business. They sold out before they could replace my plants.

So somewhere out there someone grows the Isons and these CP Plant Nursery plants.. as each year they sold out.

I have no idea if they are true to name or not.. probably not which is why they quit selling them.

Degroot also carries Loganberry.. but i havent seen it locally.. perhaps members here will find them in their locations or obtain them. Degroot for some reason or another lists their version as having prickly canes.. and they note that thornless hybrids of Logan have been developed.. which infers that they have the original.

Degroot as noted above is one of the few nurseries that carry Lucretia.. i also grow Cheyenne Blackberry from them which appears to me to be true to name… so it stands to reason that they are the only vendor selling thorny Loganberry.

The trail stops there for me.

I looked at their catalog for 2027 and it appears that they will be offering 26 units of 25 plants.. Where in the USA will they go? I am not sure.

This would be a great opportunity for a nurseryman to bring these forward to the masses… as there are no other sources that i can tell.. but i am not sure that there is such thing as masses any more of folks wanting to grow this.

I am not sure how or if Loganberry can have a better plant from a seedling… but these guys say they have it.

Regardless..this would probably be one of the best representations of the original Loganberry.. as there seems to be no good representations here in the US.

Youngberry is a strange topic here in the US and anywhere that wants to grow Boysenberry. I read that its pollen sterilizes Boysen.. and that comes from NZ where they have really done alot of breeding with Boysenberry and it is one of their cash crops.

The true Youngberry as far as i know is isolated to Australia and they want to keep it there as far away as possible from Boysen and possibly others that have more interest.

I dont want to go down that rabbit hole either as Young doesnt interest me. I have no idea if the thornless Young that was being sold is the same or nearly the same as the original..as it has came and gone as well.

So in summary.. if someone wants to go the DeGroot route that seems to be the wisest choice to bring these plants back to the folks that want to grow them.

If someone wants to try Kriegers again.. that is on them. Kriegers says that they sell thorny Loganberry.. however i received and grew out very erect thorny blackberry plants..that do not resemble any thing else that i have grown. I have no idea how or if they would know that they have Loganberries in Michigan… supposedly they are field grown… and the plants i have ordered from them all appear to be field grown bare root plants.

Perhaps the original true to name Loganberry is cold hardy..whereas the thornless one is not. Kriegers has been in business for almost 100 years so it would make sense if they do or did sell Loganberry that it was at least more cold hardy than thornless Logan.

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To be honest this sounds like an urban legend. They’re both 7x and descended from Austin Mayes but apparently there is a “study” out there (that I cannot find) and “Harvey Hall said this” (who I am definitely inclined to trust) but with no actual direct references (e.g. https://www.facebook.com/groups/heritageandrarefruit/posts/4355948861300244/?comment_id=4356069931288137&reply_comment_id=4356096937952103). It’s more likely that it’s a conflation with Boysenberry Decline in NZ specifically. Also, it seems like the kind of thing we would’ve heard about in the US before NZ even started going buck-wild with Boysen years ago. I’m going to email Harvey K. Hall to get clarification on this. Assuming he’s still alive, maybe he’ll respond.

Like you though, I’m not particularly interested in tracking down Young as I’d rather just grow Olallie given that I’m in coastal California. I wouldn’t not grow Young, but I don’t have the space for it unless I was doing some container game. Ideally if I had multiple acres I’d grow every single variety of these things just for fun but I don’t so I’ve got to be a bit more strategic with which ones I choose or accept that they’re going to be small plantings.

As far as thornless vs thorny Logan goes, I think all you need is the chimera version. It’s the mutation itself that’s keeping the chimerical tissue alive in the outer tissue layer that’s impacting thorniness and vigor, not the base genes of the plant itself. Just coppice or stress it or wait until it grows a thorny cane and propagate from there. Thorny Logan recovered. It’s obviously some kind of unstable state that the plant is trying to use as an evolutionary trial of sorts and it seems like when it’s stressed it reverts back to “let’s go with what works.” That’s just my speculation though, as I’m not an evolutionary biologist.

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He responded and said that he has personally observed that the presence of Youngberries amongst Boysenberries lead to infertility amongst the Boysens, in both commercial and research plots, and also that when trying to cross Boysen against other varieties it was difficult or impossible to get fruit set (my paraphrasing of his words).

This is interesting because Boysen has definitely been a parent in other newer ORUS varieties. Also, out here in California, it’s not uncommon at all for u-picks to grow Olallie alongside Boysen and have no issues - albeit Olallie is Black Logan/Mammoth (aka R. ursinus ‘Aughinbaugh’ x Texas Early/Crandall) x Young, so it’s not exactly the same as Young.

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This is a photo of Loganberry fields from probably 100 years ago.. the trellis is barely waist high on these young men.. so im guessing 3 feet high?

For hobby growing i think starting off in either muck tubs or plastic half barrels is the smart route.. if you dont like something you just remove it and plant anew.. versus the pain staking removal of every root and fighting new plants for a long time.

If all a person wants are small crops for fresh eating and some jam making.. i think this would be easily doable.. along with probably a couple of t posts to tie to or wrap.. then make a shrub of sorts per pot.

Hydration can be controlled and omitted during fruiting times to give the most desirable fruit as well.

Propagation would be easy to do if someone wanted more of something as well.. with easy access to roots and the ability to control tip rooting etc.

I grow blueberries this way and i am happy with my crops as well as plant health.

I think i will have to grow Silvan this way regardless. Amazing pedigree for a hobbyist.

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Have you ever grown Chehalem?

I was browsing North American Plants and they’ve got 50K overstock Thunderheads available for purchase right now. Looks like 2027 is going to be the year of the Thunderhead.

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Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing that with the community!

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I’m new here, but I’ve a delightful story to share.

In 1971 the Anderson family and the City of Pleasant Grove, Utah came to an agreement regarding a parcel of land that the Andersons decided to donate to the city.

The deal was that the city would take ownership of the land, creating a park, and that the park would be maintained as a wooded areas with camping spots suitable for youth activities and, more specifically, Boy Scout activities.

The land held a plum orchard, and a small corner of an apple orchard, and had blackberries, a massive sprawling 20’ tall behemoth of a patch, growing along ≈150’ the fence which kept the park separate from the adjacent alfalfa field.

Pleasant Grove has held up their end of the bargain to this day, and the park was even improved around 30 years ago as an Eagle Scout project with financial and material support from locals, installing an amphitheater, awnings, and other nice amenities.

The plums still grow (and their seedlings), and are European prune style plums (though some of the seedlings have gone rogue), and there are a couple crappy Apples left that are full-sized, unpruned, and biennial fruiters after all the neglect.

I lived in Pleasant Grove for ten years, just about a mile from Anderson Park. Each late summer we’d, my family and I, head up to the park with buckets and gallon bags. The plums would fill the buckets, the blackberries would fill the bags, and both would fill our bellies.

I always intended to dig up some roots and bring ‘em home, but then we moved 30 miles away.

I recently revisited the Anderson Park, specifically to see the blackberries, and they were gone…almost. The behemoth had been removed and replaced with grass because the alfalfa field had been replaced with McMansions. Yet, there was a 20’x30’ patch remaining.

I returned about two weeks later and dug up a bunch of canes, so I could preserve this productive, historical blackberry population from annihilation (I suspect they already tried and it simply grew back). They’ve been growing untreated, disease free, in the high desert since at least the late 1960s. I don’t know what variety(ies) they started with, but it’s its own thing now, certainly.

I’ve got six healthy plants growing in buckets in my yarden right now. One’s going in the yarden, and five are going into my food forest project area. Anderson Park Blackberries will live on.

Below, you’ll find picture of the site, my dug up specimens, and how they’re doing as of about three weeks ago. They’re even happier now. A truly vigorous berry.

Berry quality:

Flavor is classic, complex, fruity blackberry with sweetness supporting the tartness and a floral finish.

Seeds are very large. Some find it unpleasant. I’m not such an one. Would make an excellent jelly if seeds were an issue.

Berries are medium-to-small as compared to modern varieties, but larger than a wild blackberry.

Production was rampant on the mature patch, but was less impressive on the existing patch. We’ll see what happens in my yarden, with its vastly superior soil, and in my project area, with its natural woodland soils. I expect a return to impressive production. It was, at the time I lived in Pleasant Grove, the most productive blackberry I had ever seen. Hoping for similar results here.

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I’d post more pictures, but I’m a new user so I’m limited. Heh.

Also, here’s a guide for rubus purchasing I just put together:

BRAMBLE VARIETIES AND WHERE TO BUY THEM
Compiled from NARBA catalogs, Cornell Nursery Guide, and nursery product pages.
Stock changes every season. Patented varieties are sold only by licensed nurseries.

LOOKUP GUIDES (START HERE)
--------------------------------
Cornell Nursery Guide for Berry and Small Fruit Crops
Main page:
https://blogs.cornell.edu/berrynurseries/

Raspberry cultivars and which nurseries sell them:
https://blogs.cornell.edu/berrynurseries/raspberries/

Blackberry, hybrid, and other Rubus cultivars and which nurseries sell them:
https://blogs.cornell.edu/berrynurseries/blackberries-etc/

Nursery contact directory used by the Cornell guide:
https://blogs.cornell.edu/berrynurseries/nurseries/

NARBA nursery list (raspberry and blackberry suppliers):
https://www.raspberryblackberry.com/for-growers/nursery-list/

COMPLETE SELLER WEBSITE LIST
--------------------------------
Agri-Starts
https://www.agristarts.com/

W & J Awald Farms
https://wnjawaldfarmsinc.com/

Berries Unlimited
https://www.berriesunlimited.com/

Boston Mountain Nurseries
https://bostonmountainnurseries.com/

Burnt Ridge Nursery
https://www.burntridgenursery.com/

Daisy Farms
http://www.daisyfarms.net/

Edible Landscaping
https://ediblelandscaping.com/

Fedco Seeds
https://www.fedcoseeds.com/

Food Forest Nursery
https://www.foodforestnursery.com/

G.W. Allen Nursery
https://gwallennursery.ca/

Hand Picked Nursery
https://www.handpickednursery.com/

Hartmann's Plant Company
https://hartmannsplantcompany.com/

Honeyberry USA
https://www.honeyberryusa.com/

Indiana Berry & Plant Co.
https://www.indianaberry.com/

Kriegers Wholesale Nursery
https://kriegersnursery.com/

Nature Hills Nursery
https://naturehills.com/

Norcal Nursery
https://www.norcalnursery.com/

North American Plants (wholesale / tissue culture)
https://www.naplants.com/

Nourse Farms
https://www.noursefarms.com/

Nutcracker Nursery
https://nutcrackernursery.com/

One Green World
https://onegreenworld.com/

Peaceful Heritage Nursery
https://peacefulheritage.com/

Pense Berry Farm
https://penseberryfarm.com/

PhyllaTech
https://phyllatech.com/

Rabbit Ridge Berry Farm
https://rabbitridgeberryfarm.com/

Raintree Nursery
https://raintreenursery.com/

Saint Lawrence Nurseries
https://www.stlawrencenurseries.com/

Silver Creek Nursery (Canada)
https://silvercreeknursery.ca/

Strawberry Tyme Farms
https://strawberrytyme.com/

Trees of Antiquity
https://www.treesofantiquity.com/

Turnbull Nursery / Garden Center
https://turnbullgardencenter.com/

Weeks Berry Nursery (Oregon plant nursery)
http://www.weeksberry.com/

Whitman Farms
https://www.whitmanfarms.com/

UK / EU sources for Japanese wineberry
Blackmoor Nurseries — https://www.blackmoor.co.uk/
Chris Bowers & Sons — https://www.chrisbowers.co.uk/
Bluebell Nursery — https://www.bluebellnursery.com/
Gardens4You — https://www.gardens4you.ie/

Also cited in Cornell/NARBA lists, but with limited or no easy retail cart:
Berlin Seeds, Double A, Highland Hill Farm, Magnolia Gardens Nursery, Schlabach's, Spooner, Walker, generic "Wholesale Nursery" listings.

--------------------------------
BLACK RASPBERRIES (Rubus occidentalis)

Allen — Kriegers
Black Cap (wild-type/seedling) — Burnt Ridge; generic wholesale
Blackhawk / Black Hawk — Kriegers
Bristol — Nourse, Fedco, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, Nature Hills, North American Plants, Food Forest, Daisy Farms, Double A, Awald Farms, Turnbull, Berlin Seeds, Highland Hill Farm
Cumberland — Kriegers, Burnt Ridge, Food Forest, Boston Mountain/Pense, Highland Hill Farm, Berries Unlimited (packages)
Hidden Gem — Peaceful Heritage
Jewel — Nourse, Fedco, Raintree, One Green World, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, Hartmann's, Nature Hills, North American Plants, Food Forest, Pense, Peaceful Heritage, PhyllaTech, Strawberry Tyme, Weeks, Daisy Farms, Double A, Awald Farms, Turnbull, Berlin Seeds, Hand Picked, Silver Creek
Logan — Burnt Ridge
Mac Black — Nourse, Fedco, Indiana Berry, Awald Farms, Berlin Seeds, Hand Picked Nursery
Munger — One Green World, North American Plants, Norcal, Weeks, Trees of Antiquity
Mysore — Agri-Starts (wholesale liners)
New Logan — Kriegers, Food Forest
Niwot — Nourse, Fedco, Indiana Berry, Pense, Peaceful Heritage, Double A, Hand Picked Nursery
Ohio's Treasure — Hartmann's, One Green World, Edible Landscaping, Rabbit Ridge Berry Farm
Pequot Lakes — Hartmann's, One Green World, Honeyberry USA, St Lawrence
Shekinah Tahi / Tahi — Nourse, Fedco, Raintree, Berries Unlimited, Pense

Most named black raspberries at one nursery: Kriegers (Allen, Blackhawk, Bristol, Cumberland, Jewel, New Logan)
Best modern retail set: Nourse or Fedco (Bristol, Jewel, Mac Black, Niwot, Tahi)

--------------------------------
PURPLE RASPBERRIES

Brandywine — Indiana Berry, Food Forest, Kriegers
Chemianus — Norcal
Glencoe — Indiana Berry, Agri-Starts, Raintree
Royalty — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Raintree, One Green World, Nature Hills, Burnt Ridge, Food Forest, Kriegers, Strawberry Tyme, Turnbull, Awald Farms, G.W. Allen

--------------------------------
YELLOW / GOLD RASPBERRIES

Anne — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, One Green World, Raintree, North American Plants, many others
Cascade Gold — One Green World, North American Plants
Double Gold — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, Raintree, North American Plants
Fall Gold / Fallgold — Indiana Berry, Kriegers, One Green World, Nature Hills, North American Plants
Honey Queen — North American Plants, One Green World

--------------------------------
RED RASPBERRIES — SUMMER / FLORICANE

Amity — Kriegers, One Green World, North American Plants, Weeks
Bababerry — One Green World, North American Plants
Boyne — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, One Green World, Nature Hills, Burnt Ridge, Food Forest, many
Canby — One Green World, North American Plants, Indiana Berry, Weeks, Burnt Ridge, Strawberry Tyme
Cascade Delight — Kriegers, One Green World, Raintree, Norcal, Burnt Ridge, North American Plants
Cascade Harvest / Dawn / Bounty — One Green World, North American Plants, Norcal
Chemainus — Norcal
Chilcoten — Weeks
Coho — One Green World
Cowichan — Norcal
Dormanred — Boston Mountain / Pense
Encore — Nourse, Hartmann's
Festival — G.W. Allen
Finnberry — North American Plants
Jeanne d'Orleans — G.W. Allen, Indiana Berry
K-81-6 — Indiana Berry, G.W. Allen
Killarney — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers
Latham — Nourse, Kriegers
Lauren — Indiana Berry, Pense, Strawberry Tyme
Lewis — North American Plants
Malahat — Norcal, North American Plants
Mammoth — Cornell guide
Meeker — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants, Norcal
Moutere — Cornell guide
Nova — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, Raintree
Prelude — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, Pense, Food Forest, many
Saanich — Raintree
Raspberry Shortcake (dwarf) — One Green World, Nature Hills, Raintree (Bushel and Berry)
Souris — Turnbull
Taylor — Cornell guide
Tulameen — Hartmann's, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants
Tulamagic — Cornell guide
Vintage — North American Plants
Willamette — North American Plants

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RED RASPBERRIES — FALL / PRIMOCANE

AAC Eden — G.W. Allen
Autumn Bliss — Indiana Berry, Food Forest, Nature Hills, Norcal, North American Plants, Pense, St Lawrence
Autumn Britten — Raintree, Burnt Ridge, Hartmann's, Pense, Strawberry Tyme, Turnbull
Caroline — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, One Green World, Berries Unlimited
Crimson Beauty / Blush / Giant / Night / Treasure — Indiana Berry (Night, Treasure); One Green World (Giant); Berries Unlimited (Beauty, Blush, Giant, Night); North American Plants (several Crimson types); Awald Farms (Giant, Night)
Heritage — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, Raintree, One Green World, Nature Hills, almost every berry nursery
Himbo-Top — Nourse
Imara — Nourse
Jaclyn — Hartmann's
Joan J — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Raintree
Josephine — Cornell guide / older catalogs
Kokanee — Norcal, North American Plants
Kwanza / Kweli / Mapema / Rafiki / Sarafina / Shani — Nourse Farms (Advanced Berry Breeding line; some require grower contact)
Nantahala — Indiana Berry, North American Plants, PhyllaTech
Polana — Nourse, Indiana Berry
Polka — Nourse, Raintree, Pense, Norcal, Strawberry Tyme
Red River — G.W. Allen
Red Wing — St Lawrence
Rosanna — Raintree
September — Cornell guide
Funberry — One Green World
Emerald Carpet — Raintree

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THORNLESS ERECT / SEMI-ERECT BLACKBERRIES

Apache — Indiana Berry, One Green World, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants, Agri-Starts, Pense, Food Forest, Burnt Ridge, PhyllaTech
Arapaho — Kriegers, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants, Agri-Starts, Pense, Nature Hills, Raintree, Food Forest, Peaceful Heritage
Black Satin — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants, Burnt Ridge, Nature Hills, Weeks
Caddo — Nourse, Indiana Berry, North American Plants, Agri-Starts, PhyllaTech
Chester — Nourse, Kriegers, Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants, Nature Hills
Eclipse — One Green World, Raintree, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants, Agri-Starts, PhyllaTech
Galaxy — Raintree, North American Plants, Agri-Starts, PhyllaTech
Hall's Beauty — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants
Navaho / Navajo — Kriegers, North American Plants, Agri-Starts
Osage — Indiana Berry, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants, Agri-Starts
Ouachita — Nourse, Kriegers, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants, Agri-Starts
Ponca / Sweet-Ark Ponca — Nourse, Indiana Berry, One Green World, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants
Sweet-Ark Immaculate — Berries Unlimited, North American Plants
Sweetie Pie — Raintree, Berries Unlimited, Agri-Starts, North American Plants
Triple Crown — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, Raintree, Nature Hills, North American Plants, almost every blackberry seller
Twilight — Raintree, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants, Agri-Starts
Von — Indiana Berry, North American Plants, Agri-Starts, PhyllaTech
Big Daddy — Berries Unlimited, Agri-Starts, North American Plants
Snowbank — Raintree, Agri-Starts, North American Plants
Natchez — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants, Agri-Starts (very widely sold)

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THORNY ERECT BLACKBERRIES

Brazos — Agri-Starts, Pense
Chickasaw — Burnt Ridge
Darrow — Kriegers, Turnbull
Hull — Kriegers, North American Plants, Food Forest
Illini Hardy — Strawberry Tyme, Nutcracker Nursery
Kiowa — Indiana Berry, Agri-Starts, Pense
Shawnee — Indiana Berry
Thunderhead — Raintree, North American Plants

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PRIMOCANE BLACKBERRIES

Prime-Ark Freedom — Nourse, Indiana Berry, Kriegers, Raintree, One Green World, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants, Agri-Starts, Pense, many
Prime-Ark Traveler — Indiana Berry, North American Plants, Agri-Starts, Pense
Prime-Ark 45 — Nourse, North American Plants, Agri-Starts, Pense, Norcal, Magnolia, PhyllaTech
Prime-Ark Horizon — Nourse, Berries Unlimited, North American Plants, Agri-Starts

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TRAILING / PNW BLACKBERRIES

Black Diamond — One Green World, North American Plants, Magnolia, Whitman Farms
Columbia Giant — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants
Columbia Star — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants, Burnt Ridge, Magnolia
Columbia Sunrise — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants
Kotata — North American Plants
Marion / Marionberry — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants, Weeks, Magnolia
Metolius — Magnolia; check NAP / OSU-licensed nurseries
Newberry — North American Plants
Obsidian — North American Plants, One Green World, Magnolia
Olallie / Olallieberry — One Green World, North American Plants, Weeks
Onyx — North American Plants; older Raintree catalogs
Silvan — North American Plants
Waldo — North American Plants
Wild Treasure — Raintree, North American Plants
Loch Ness — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants, Magnolia, Peaceful Heritage
Oregon Thornless / Evergreen Thornless — UK and some U.S. garden-center lines
Cascade (trailing) — Raintree

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HYBRIDS AND OTHER RUBUS

Boysenberry (thorny) — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants, Pense, Agri-Starts, Weeks, Magnolia
Boysenberry (thornless) — Burnt Ridge, Pense, Weeks
Loganberry (thornless) — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants, Food Forest, Weeks
Tayberry — Raintree, One Green World, North American Plants, Pense, Weeks
Dewberry — generic species listings
Baby Cakes (dwarf blackberry) — One Green World
Thimbleberry (R. parviflorus) — Raintree, One Green World, Hartmann's
Salmonberry (R. spectabilis) — Raintree, One Green World
Japanese wineberry (R. phoenicolasius) — mostly UK (Blackmoor, Chris Bowers, Bluebell Nursery, Gardens4You); uncommon in U.S. trade (invasive in parts of the East)

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QUICK PICKS

Most black raspberry names at one nursery: Kriegers
Best modern black raspberry set (includes Niwot + Tahi): Nourse or Fedco
Most total blackberry names: North American Plants (wholesale plugs, not retail)
Best home-gardener combo: Nourse + Raintree + One Green World + Indiana Berry
Best live cultivar-to-nursery lookup: Cornell Nursery Guide
https://blogs.cornell.edu/berrynurseries/
5 Likes

Had Lance Mellon stop by and give me some Phenomenalberry jam in trade for young Olallie and Marion starts (sadly I accidentally coppiced the Olallie I was cleaning up for him while pruning out an old cane but it’ll grow back quickly). He sells Phenomenal bare roots and jam on Etsy.

5 Likes