Brush killed creeping charlie area - can i till it?


#1

I had to chemical kill a section of land that i was letting naturalize. Creeping charlie and tall fescue took it over. We are getting goats first week of June. Guess what they cant have !?!?! Yup. Thise two.
I sprayed with spectracide. Once everthing is dead i plan to mow low and discard ( not compost) the dead stuff.
Will rototilling it bring up creeping charlie stolons? Or if its dead at the surface are the stolons fead too?
I have brome, bahia and red clover seed. Id love to just till it and seed it.
Thoughts?
Ps - i hate using this stuff but i have no choice.


#2

My least favorite weed.
I don’t have answers, but just want to wish you good luck.


#3

I’ve never had any luck totally killing C.C. in the spring. I found hitting the C.C. with any broadleaf herbicide that contained at least a small percentage of dicamba in the fall (right around Halloween) was the only way to get it under control. Even then, it was a multi-year battle. Good luck


#4

Reg,
I doubt goats would eat CC, but they can, and will, consume fescue with no ill effects other than this one over-riding tenet of goat production: Goats were never intended to live and GRAZE in the hot, humid, southeastern US (or the Midwest, either, for that matter).
They are browsers - and, as an aside, will happily destroy your fruit plantings if they gain access to them - but once they’re relegated to having to eat low-altitude stuff like grass & clover, parasite issues can rapidly become a life-threatening problem.
Best place for goats in the US is a brushy, overgrown hillside full of multiflora rose, privet, kudzu and blackberry brambles…or the arid Southwest.


#5

I have good success with 2 applications of Crossbow 14 days apart in mid to late spring. Just avoid spraying at on days where temperatures is above 70°F or on windy days to avoid injury to other plants.

But the best time to spray for Creeping Charlie is during the fall, as things are transitioning into dormancy.

If you want to treat small areas where creeping charlie is growing in lawn grasses, you can use a a selective herbicide like 2,4-D, Dicamba or triclopyr, or combinations of these products. Triclopyr will be the most effective option for creeping Charlie. These are systemic, selective broadleaf herbicides. They are taken up by the plant and kill the entire plant from roots to flowers. Note they do not kill lawn grasses if applied properly. These products are effective and usually require only 2-3 applications per year depending on proper use and timing. (SOURCE)


#6

id just rake in on the top. the dead plants will protect the seeds till they germinate. id say most of the runners are dead but cc is a tough plant to kill . i have tons of it in the orchard and its a constant battle to keep it out of my plantings. was reluctant to spray as bumbles love its flowers but i may try fall spaying and reseeding.


#7

@moose71
One of the reasons i dont feel bad about killing it is that it actually isn’t good forage for bees. It plays a dirty trick, only has nectar in about every 3rd bloom and the bees only get an 80% or so return on the energy expended.
I always thought it was awesome stuff. My plan was to use it as orchard floor. I loved it. One of our members (i cant find the convo to give them credit) told me he had 2 hives starve on CC ! I was very surprised but did more research and found a USDA report and a beekeeping study. Imma plant a lot of perennial white clover to replace it in the orchard.
Damn stuff.
I will use the rake it in plan. Ty.


#8

@Lucky_P
The breeder im buying from told me unless the tall fescue is endophyte- free (it isnt) to get rid of it. Keeping it short keeps the contaminated seedheads a non- issue but might as well not have dead space in their daily turnout.
They will have access to my weedy/woody areas as well, but that will be when hub and i are home. They will beat back any poison ivy trying to invade! They wont get heavy clover graze. Im doing maybe 5-% clover seed in their turnout.
Im in NY, maritime climate. Breeder is in central Jersey. So no dry areas for us … and im at 27 feet above sea level - no hills here lol! Highest point around here is the dump
I hope they like those g-damn invasive rosa multiflora starts. One of my top 3 hated plants.


#9

@smsmith
@dimitri_7a
I will hit any that reemerges in fall too i guess. I shoulda done it last fall but we hadnt decided where the turnout was gonna be.


#10

There’s not overwhelming evidence that KY-31 endophyte poses a major issue for goats, unlike what we see in cattle and horses(I’m a veterinarian and former goat producer)… but, if you’re up for eradicating it and trying to establish other forages, go for it. On a small scale it won’t be too costly. When we replaced existing KY-31 on 110 acres here, it was pretty expensive, and I’m still not convinced that I was better off in the long run having done it - the new, novel-endophyte types are less vigorous in establishing than ol’ dirty KY-31, and the endophyte-free fescues turn toes-up at the first hint of drought or overgrazing. I’ve got no experience with brome, was never impressed with bahia back home in AL… surprised that it would even be a thing in NY…thought it was strictly a Deep South grass.


#11

@Lucky_P
Im going to kinda mix it up and see what sticks lol. I have some native raspberries and lots of dandelion seed to add in as well. Thanks for all the info - im sure i will be asking more questions on pasturing. Pleasure to meet u :sunglasses::innocent:


#12

If i could ask some advice - im wanting to toss a bunch of seed into the mix. Dandelion, beets, chard, let the burdock grow … fo u think thats a good idea, for a varied grazing diet?
Plus i have some wild raspberries that i potted up (for some reason) and about 1000 linear feet of youngberry. Are they good too?
And it seems i ordered alfalfa seed, so no brome - bahia and alfalfa came (ya know, i do that a lot these days. When the order comes its like a slot machine, what am i gonna get?)


#13

Hey Reg,
I don’t have goats but I have a general advice about pasturing. Plants that reproduce vegetatively (make runners/ offshots) are going to be much longer lived in a pasture than plants that only reproduce generatively ( through seeds). Think of it that way: a plant that has runners has its energy-reserves much wider spread and so the chance to survive excessive pasturing is much bigger. You can absolutely put (for example) alfalfa in your pasture just be aware that it will disappear quite fast if it can’t regenerate.


#14

@Oepfeli
I was thinking of splitting the turnout into 2 areas to try to keep stuff from getting eaten to death. (?) would that help? Try and rotate maybe every 3 weeks-8 weeks?


#15

Hey Reg, splitting is the right way to go!
Here in Switzerland we talk about 6 weeks before we graze a pasture again, (and only about a week in one pasture) but of course the speed of plant growth could be very different where you are! And its going to depend on pasture size, number of goats etc.
Maybe you can check with some agricultural institutions in your region to check what a plant growth rate you can expect per day and acre and how much fodder a goat requires per day. Then you can calculate how long it will take your goats to graze the pasture once.
Ideally you could then move them, but depending on the size of your property this isn’t going to be practical.
Of course goats are highly selective in their eating habits so it could very well be that they just like some plants much more and just leave the other stuff be. You’ll find out quite fast what they like.
Maybe you will occasionally have to mow to keep plants they don’t like in check…

But even then, changing the pasture has the advantage of keeping parasite pressure down. Of course parasite pressure builds over time so stay on top of your deworming!

I hope I could somewhat help you. I really have not much experience with goats. All of this is just advice for pasturing cattle from the perspective of keeping the plant stock of a pasture healthy and in balance.
I assume you are a hobbyist(?) Then all of this is maybe not that important to you, it just has to be easy to manage. That’s okay too! Two pastures sounds like a reasonable balance to me…


#16

@Oepfeli
Wow ty for the info!:sunglasses:
I have a small suburban homestead. Orchard, vegs, ducks and now goats. Nigerian dwarf. My doe is kidding (with the breeder) soon and im taking her and her kids. So prolly 3-4 nigerians in total.


#17

Good luck with your goats. :+1:
I’m sure they’ll be a constant source of joy and entertainment for you!:grinning:


#18

Thank you very much!


#19

Check out Dr. Susan Schoenian’s UofMD Extension Sheep & Goat website…lots of hood info and links to important sites like American Consortium for Small Ruminant Parasite Control.


#20

@Lucky_P
Thank you so much!
Its turns out i ordered brome grass not bahia. :blush: better choice.
I will have a look there. Appreciate your advice very much ty