Is a non-astringent American-Asian hybrid persimmon within reach?

If we can actually get ahold of Taishu that is a definite possibility. If that code is cracked by anyone, please share wood!

1 Like

The germplasm repository at UC Davis holds many different types of persimmons. I noticed they have Oku Gosho, which is the male parent in many non-astringent crosses before Taishu became a thing. Some of their other genotypes might also make male flowers. They seem to be a difficult facility to get germplasm from though. Most of the ones with “Gosho” in their names seem to be non-astringent.

EDIT: Another one is Hana Gosho that Edible Landscaping used to sell. That one was also used as the male parent in some crosses made in Japan.


Thanks for sharing @PharmerDrewee!

*At the very least, if WE can’t get ahold of Taishu, maybe our government can to share with us… A thought.

1 Like

I notice that the Chinese PCNA used in the research linked above (Post #145) is Eshi 1. So that’s a 2nd C-PCNA name.

1 Like

synergism doesn’t mean it’s a for sure path with my hopeful intentions of Morris Burton xkaki however Darrel seems to think C-PCNA have more stability I suppose when breeded with Morris Burton.

So, I will read the 15-page document above soon, but I am interested of course in any Kaki. And thanks to Andrew for a bit more information regarding UC Davis’ orchards & cultivars they might have/do possess.

It’s a very snowy day here today, so I’ve been slogging my way through the article. Here are my main take-aways.


<< To examine the PA accumulation patterns in CPCNA fruits, three cultivars, ‘Eshi 1′ (CPCNA), ‘Youhou’ (JPCNA) and ‘Mopanshi’ (non-PCNA), were used for PA seasonal change determination (Fig. 1A).

Most persimmon fruits accumulate large amounts of high-molecular-weight proanthocyanidins (PAs) in special compartment cells called “tannin cells” that cause a strong astringency sensation in fresh fruits; therefore, these fruits are inedible without artificial treatment to remove the astringency. There is a spontaneous mutant phenotype whose fruits naturally lose their astringency on the tree1, these fruits are edible without any artificial treatment after harvest. This non-astringent mutant phenotype, also called pollination constant and non-astringent (PCNA), includes Japanese PCNA (JPCNA) and Chinese PCNA (CPCNA). >>

  1. J-PCNA and C-PCNA have different genetics, one recessive, the other dominant.

<< The genetic difference of the natural de-astringency trait between CPCNA and JPCNA is a single dominant locus controlling in the former genotype but recessive in the latter one. >>

  1. J-PCNA de-astringency is associated with down-regulation of proanthocyanidin pathways as early as Week 5 after bloom.

<< Expression of most of genes (i.e. DkPAL, DkCHS, DkCHI, DkF3H, DkF35H, DkDFR, DkANS, and DkANR) involved in PA biosynthetic pathway was synchronously down-regulated from 5 WAB and was almost below the detection limit after 7 WAB in JPCNA. >>

  1. C-PCNA de-astringency is associated with transformation of soluble tannins to insoluble much later around Week 20 after bloom.

<< In this study, we found the astringency removal in CPCNA is in the late stage of fruit development (i.e. after 20 WAB), which is far [later] than in JPCNA (i.e. 10 WAB), however the soluble tannin in non-PCNA ‘Mopanshi’ maintain high level until full ripening (i.e. 25 WAB). . . .

Thus, we presumed that there may be a “coagulation effect” that soluble tannins converted to insoluble during late stage of CPCNA fruit development and caused de-astringency. >>

  1. PCA (non-PCNA) de-astringency is not discussed much, except that it happens very late – 25 WAB. There is also this cryptic comment:

<< In addition, astringency removal in soft persimmon is mainly caused by the accumulation of water-soluble pectin. >>

  1. Treatment of astringent persimmons with water, ethanol, or CO2 cases anoxia, which stimulates production of acetaldehyde, which tranforms soluble tannins to insoluble.

<< Soluble tannins cause astringency in persimmon. Acetaldehyde was found to accumulate significantly in the flesh following the treatment of fruits with warm water, ethanol or CO2, and acetaldehyde reacts with soluble tannins to form an insoluble gel, causing the fruits to lose their astringency. >>

1 Like

Jrd 51 I do appreciate all the time, & research you’ve put into this!
I am not going to do much reading about it at this time, but

Quick Question I assumed Japanese Kaki Had some Japonica in the breed Does it?
I could look it up , but I think it is easier to ask.

I saw this seeing if I could get a quick answer (see quotes)
and some cultivars seem to have Multiple Genes from multiple species
but I am asking in general about Japanese Kaki having D. japonica
breed somewhat in If you know?

I’d love to research this farther
but I am not trying to read stuff I am not going to use until I plan to use it.)

(quote from This article’s abstract see link #2)
#2 The persimmon ( Diospyros oleifera Cheng) genome
provides new insights into the inheritance of astringency and ancestral evolution

Proanthocyanidin biosynthesis genes were mainly distributed on chromosome 1,
and the clustering of these genes is responsible for the genetic stability of astringency heredity.
Genome-based RNA-seq identified deastringency genes,
and promoter analysis showed that most of their promoters contained large numbers of low oxygen-responsive motifs,
which is consistent with the efficient industrial application of high CO2 treatment to remove astringency

A lot of good looking science papers to look through here It seems

(above abstract but a list of other links click on free article or see link below)


Off topic somewhat, but about the chemicals in persimmon they taste sweet,
but fermenting them in wine they might have a high acid balance
the wine was sour, in a good way didn’t think I added to much acid
but actually Liked the other batch of wine better thin with less fruit
it is Minerally never got into the minerally white wine
maybe I should try a less bold Pinot grigio type wine
Tannin sure is good for wine, so is drying fruit
so many people over look other uses of bitterness in fruit
some of the store bought fruits at 50 cents a pound
the best one was sat until brown inside like caramel
(or Boarder line rotten or turned to vinegar like the last several in the paper bag.)

when cheap
I hope to try to experiment eating these fuyu persimmons at various stages
I agree with redsun on low quality store bought fruit
I do think others should try not to give up on them if they can find cheap
experiment at different stages or ripeness
(note one was very hard under ripe I think that could of been good to try to air dry
it has bruises though so not sure what will happen (had for over a month or 2 )

It seems @jrd51 the connection to American and Chinese-kaki is the same process of removing astringency whereas Japanese PCNA is going to be more of a shift of genes that, doesn’t occur at all with American variety-persimmons. Does that sound about right, to you?

(American x Chinese-kaki (C-PCNA) has the best or most natural of a pathway, to (a) wanted result) - in my yard, zone 5b.


1 Like

Sorry, I have no idea.

Have we touched on the subject of a pollination variant non-astringent hybrid yet? I tried to use the search function to look through this thread, but could’ve missed something. It seems that the pollination variant gene(s) do(es) come through in hybrids. Cliff England posted a report of one that fruited from some hybrid seeds he planted. It seems to take fewer steps than getting a PCNA hybrid tree. The pollination variant trait comes through if enough copies are inherited in the offspring as opposed to the Japanese PCNA trait where all 6 copies of the gene must be present.

EDIT: Persimmon breeding in Japan for pollination-constant non-astringent (PCNA) type with marker-assisted selection
Figure 1 helps to explain pollination variance.


I wasn’t sure if the paper meant speciation from other species related to D. kaki or hybrids?
Speciation - the formation of new and distinct species in the course of evolution.
(OH edit I missed the last line of second link
It was involved with Divergence so yes speciation
at least partially answered my question until I attempt to sort through it all. )

Oops my copy/paste messed up the format
I took the title from of research paper of bold, & big then rewrote it

I will try to edit to fix format here again Sorry everyone.

Yes, this whole thread is a wealth, Andrew. It’s been discussed, a lot.

if 2,000 seedlings are grown of J-PCNA x a virginiana cultivar the resultant is something like 15% of which 5% is the final result where 5-15 trees are worthwhile.

Edit above.

I propose we cross Nishimura Wase with that F2 Rosseyanka male. That seems like it would produce quick results. Nishimura Wase is early ripening, moderately large, and very productive. It also seems to be strongly pollination variant. Some of my fruit only had 3 seeds (8 seeds max?) yet were completely non-astringent while hard. I bet the seedlings would give PVNA offspring in the high double digit percentages.


That damn Rosseyanka dies back at -12 degrees. I can’t grow it. It rarely goes to -15 or past -15 here. Mercer County, IL. 5b

Dax – I think we don’t know a lot. But . . . .

  1. J-PCNA evidently become non-astringent by shutting down production of tannins early. I don’t think we have any idea whether the J-PCNA gene will operate the same way in American varieties. But it doesn’t seem intuitively unlikely. We need to try.

  2. C-PCNA evidently become non-astringent by triggering polymerization of tannins into insoluble molecules late. I don’t think we have any hard evidence as to whether the C-PCNA gene will operate the same in American varieties. BUT I have an educated guess:

The paper states, “Acetaldehyde is the product of pyruvate produced by glycolysis. As mentioned previously, acetaldehyde is one of the main compounds that render the soluble tannin insoluble and cause de-astringency.” So evidently C-PCNAs reduce astringency by producing acetaldehyde. Moreover, if my understanding is correct. PVAs and PVNAs reduce astringency (less or more) because the seeds make ethanol, which is readily converted to acetaldehyde. Finally, the paper shows that anoxia (water, CO2, alcohol) stimulates production of acetaldehyde, which is why it works to reduce astringency is PCAs and PVAs. Summing up – acetaldehyde is the key to removing astringency in Non-PCNA Kakis before fruit softening.

Now recall that anoxia treatments (water, CO2, ethanol) don’t work on American persimmons. This suggests to me that the C-PCNA mutation may have no impact in a hybrid C-PCNA x American. But again, we need to try.


Who the heck knows? A genome map.

Peace my brother(s),


Is this Anoxia
Wild American Persimmon picked hard ,
and stored in fridge in plastic sealed bag a few months will ripen
This I am claiming first hand (but of coarse this is the internet)
I picked while other fruit on the tree was soft,
and ripe but low hanging fruit was hard
and a wild tree so from a 50 to 75 foot tree (or got what I could gather, but hard)

That’s odd. This is the male tree that’s an offspring of Rosseyanka, or are you referring to Rosseyanka itself? Can you grow ones like Kasandra?

1 Like

The Japanese released two crosses of Kurokuma (PVNA) x Taishu (PCNA). The two new varieties – Taiten & Taigetsu – are reported to be PVA.

The Koreans released two crosses of Johongsi (PCNA) x Nishimurawase (PVNA). Both new varieties – Chuyeon and Chosi – are reported to be non-astringent but the abstracts are not clear whether PCNA, PVA, or PVNA.

The PVNA trait is reportedly additive – the more ethanol produced by seeds the better (less astringent). I can imagine that a PCNA x PVNA cross is the worst of both worlds – not enough PCNA genes for the phenotype to be non-astringent, and not enough ethanol production by seeds to eliminate astringency.

1 Like

There is indeed a PVNA hybrid though, one with kaki and virginiana lineage. Please reference this report.