@Heirloom
Leaning ,yah…
I have a few M 7 . Most leaning or fell over.
Makes it hard to mow a row.!
MM 106 is a large tree.usually some ladder work
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I have mostly M111 rootstock apple trees planted. How tall have you found they actually get for you there?
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@MikeC
Well that depends on the variety.
At 20+ yrs.
I have some golden delicious that are modified central leader, with minimal pruning to limit height…that are ~16ft.
More vigorous triployeds etc. taller.
Honey crisp ~10 ft.
They can be kept shorter with proper heading.
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That is what I plan on doing. Trying to keep them shorter than they would normally grow. I am trying to see how they fill out a little more and bear some fruit before starting to trim them back. I have some planted since 2013. I have started getting some fruit the last two years. Some still have not fruited yet, planted a little later.
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I’ve been using pruning cuts to the center leaders on my trees in trying to control the size and branch locations. Mostly because I don’t like the idea of having to use a ladder to retrieve fruit.
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The real questions in this thread by my estimation are:
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How suitable are Geneva rootstocks for the hobbyist and small-scale grower?
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When grown by typical methods practiced by the hobbyist/small scale grower, do Geneva rootstocks present an unacceptable risk of failure? (i.e. not a 3/4 wire trellis but t-posts etc.)
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Are Geneva rootstocks presented as freestanding rootstocks (G.969 and G.890 especially) at risk of graft breakage (when budded)?
I will also submit that the G-stock budded trees in question are sold increasingly to the hobbyist. I have seen apples sold to the public with G roots at Grandpa’s Orchard, Raintree, Cummins, and Orange Pippin Trees (Cummins = Orange Pippin?). So it isn’t unreasonable to have concerns as a hobbyist.
Secondly, my understanding is that the vast majority of apples are produced by summer budding “sleeping eyes” in the nursery. So I would imagine the majority of Geneva-rooted apples sold with grafted varieties on them are produce through budding.
I suspect the jury is still out… but we might eventually have an answer to my questions on the two rootstocks G.890 and G.969 from the scientific research or through big grower observations given that Cornell is selling them as freestanding trees.
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I see all these questions (and more) as simply extensions of discussion #2, and to that end, I’m not sure we’ll get a timely answer for any them. Even then, there be answers with many asterisks, I’m sure others with more specific concerns for their application/growing conditions might have more questions beyond those you raise (all good questions).
If we flip the questions and turn them to Malling, for example, the answer will be “it depends.” What conditions do you need to contend with? Replant? Disease resistance? Hardiness? Crown Rot? etc… etc… Each and every criteria limits which Malling or other mature rootstock you’d be recommended.
At best guess, I see Geneva eventually like Malling. We will have a better understanding in the future, but there too will be many footnotes for each and every Geneva.
As you point out, it’s not unreasonable to have concerns as a hobbyist. The time lost to a wrong choice has perhaps greater consequences for a hobbyist since they are often dealing with limited space. However, I don’t think there’s much to gleaned (personal opinion) from the greater availability of Geneva to the public, as such was the case of Malling when first introduced. The growing conditions (variables) are far to dispersed among hobbyists and the sample sizes too small to draw hard conditions, just perhaps hints and concerns to direct future inquiry. Much like the newest and hottest product on Amazon, I expect that more positive reviews inherently means there will also be more negative reviews. This doesn’t mean the product itself is better [or worse] than an less reviewed older item with fewer negative reviews.
I was under the impression that G.890 was the only one Geneva themselves “recommends” for eventual free-standing. (I should mention one of the orchards I contacted mentioned 935 was eventually free standing for them. Presumably, they don’t have high winds to contend with - I should have asked. )
Like you (and probably everyone else) I’d be interested to see more research and big grower observations.
PS. I’m a little surprised no one has clipped the charts from Stuart Adam’s master thesis that I linked earlier. His conclusions and data actually address the bud vs cleft concerns raised in by @Chikn. It’s limited in scope, but it’s interesting nonetheless.
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That’s an interesting abstract.
I imagine that as far as graft strength, whip and tongue is similar to saddle graft that he used. I like whip and tongue over cleft because once the graft is assembled there is minimal exposure of wood, and in my mind’s eye, there is almost no visible wound, and no sort-of disorganized callous growing over the end-cut wood. I like to think it seals better. However, it does require a match of size for stock and scion. Bud grafting looks less secure to me, but after a few years, who knows?
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You need to download the actual paper (link on right side of abstract) to get to the meat and potatoes. He compensates for TCA when calculating graft strength.
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Great thread.
I just ordered 5 trees from ACN on non genevas, to get some variability in understock. (Bud9/emla7/bud111)
Hadda do 5 for free shipping. Of course.
I want splendour - cummins has it on g210. So that will be its own order. Only g210 i will have, others are 11 and 41
Im going to stake the hell outta stuff i guess
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Yes, I’m am strongly considering buying a dozen Bud 9 rootstocks and in-arching them above the graft on all my Geneva rooted trees (all but 2) next spring.
There is also a possibility that Chikn’s issue is somehow related to climate. Say a dry spell then excess rain followed by another rain with wind a few days later causing the unions to be more brittle than they otherwise would. I’ve got the same climate as him.
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Well, I’ve found Bud-9 to be vigorous the first summer.
Don’t know how it will perform over a dozen seasons?
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That article about G41 in Eastern Washington State… I suppose the kind of commercial growing they do there works for them. Although some times, I have put in continued investment into something that didn’t work out, in for a dime in for a dollar, and regretted it later. For me as just an old guy with a hobby orchard to putter around in, no problems with fireblight yet, no issues that I know of with replant disease (my land was not recently a commercial orchard), and not wanting to tie my trees up quite that intensely, G41 at least is not for me at all. Too complicated and risky. I’m glad I got to read that article and thank you for the link. However, I still need to read about other Geneva rootstocks.
quoting from that article - "Callahan of Adams County Nursery had harsher words for G.41. He doesn’t like it and doesn’t mind saying so…
…contracts out most of its G.41 sales… because he would rather not take the risk.
Not only is it brittle, he said, it leads the scion to a more upright growth habit, and rabbits in the Eastern U.S. love it, just as they do Malling 27, a parent of G.41. “If rabbits like it, mice will like it, too,” … suggests using a tree guard and bait for mice in the fall…" [actually I use a hardware cloth sleeve as a vole guard for all of my trees]
And a lot about pruning and trellising requirements.
Just way too finicky and intense for this backyard hobby guy (me) to have to know and deal with. Even if whip/tongue, cleft, or saddle grafts turn out better, I don’t want to make that risk.
My favorites from Geneva are their Surefire Cherry and their Liberty Apple. Both do wonderful in my orchard.
Thank you @Chikn and @justpeachy for all of the info and experience. Im sorry @Chickn for the loss. I would be very disappointed too.
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Geneva rootstocks did not cause most of my problems although 15/50 G41 trees tightly clipped to the trellis broke at the graft. I never had a chance to test G935 which was recommended for my area, but it now looks like G935 may be another one of the Geneva rootstocks with problems. I only lost 15 trees but its my understanding that some larger growers have lost tens of thousands.
Actually, most of my problems were caused by B9 rootstock which was recommended for my area but produced much smaller trees than expected on many varieties. Unfortunately, the small trees don’t produce enough apples to make money like I expected. They will never generate $1000 of revenue per 100 foot of trellised row. The good news is that by year 7 most of my apple experiment paid for itself and I had a lot of fun.
Some Geneva rootstocks are superior to alternative rootstocks and some Geneva rootstocks are disasters! Unfortunately, it may take a lot of years before you know which one you have.
My G11 trees grow like weeds and could generate $1000 per 100 for feet or more if they were supported by a very beefy support structure
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Thanks for the link to the article. I should point out that G41 isn’t related to M27…G41 is the result of a Ottawa 3 x Robusta 5 cross. The article is a bit more positive than the portion you quoted but yes with G41 you want to be careful with the graft union. All dwarf trees need support so that isn’t a issue specific to G41. I know some people grow dwarfs without support in certain circumstances but it generally isn’t a good idea. I wouldn’t give up on dwarf trees even if you decide G41 isn’t a good choice for you. Dwarf trees need support but can be trained to any system really. You can go central leader, tall spindle, vertical axis, or oblique cordon if you like. Plus most of pruning, harvesting, and training can be done from ground level which means it takes less time. Probably the biggest risk with apple trees is the one no one talks about- falling off ladders. This is especially true for older folks. Having small trees either reduces this or eliminates it.
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I appreciate you getting back to me. So the main problem you had was B9s weren’t filling their space on the trellis and then the graft failures with G41. It’s probably good that you didn’t get G935. It has a problem with latent viruses although besides that performance is very good. It’s similar to G16 in that respect. I am glad to hear your G11 trees are doing well. I have some trees on it although ironically my Roxbury Russet on G11 doesn’t want to grow for me instead it only wants to fruit. Not sure what the cause for that is.
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@mroot you are right about ladders not being good for the older hobbyist. Not just for picking apples, ,
but pruning, thinning, and spraying.
One lesson for me in all of this, is that it looks to me like some modern commercial orchards look more like vineyards than the old apple orchards. interesting.
I’ve been learning, gradually (because I’m a slow learner and stubborn) that if I am to continue my garden and orchard hobby for another 10 or 20 years, it needs to be mainly at ground level. My old multigrafts have been fun, but this year I could not reach high to thin, and therefore my crop of some good apples, Rubinette, Queen Cox, Winecrisp, has been too crowded, small, inferior. My smaller trees did much better because I have access to them.
I learned the importance of rootstocks with some failures on M27. It’s just way too whimpy for low vigor varieties. And whatever rootstock my Pristine was on, having a favorite apple variety, fully loaded four years on, and the graft just falls off, is discouraging.
WSU has a nice “rootstock tour” that has so much info it is sort of overwhelming. I have to focus on dwarfing types. I also don’t want to put all of my eggs in one basket, and need to depend on easily bought/shipped ones from mail order sources that can send small numbers.
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As an ‘older folk’ falling off a ladder is a risk if you are careless or hurried, same for ‘younger folk’. My biggest risk now is the loss of 5-6 yrs. Yes I will replant because I’m an optimist but mortality looms as a limiting factor.
I have several growing for graft, G890, this coming spring. I guess we will find out what they will do sooner or later.
I’m very glad to see my disaster with Geneva stock has started a discussion and I think @Levers101 has a great point when suggesting that certain Geneva stocks may not be for the hobbyist. So far G16 has not had any trouble in my orchard, praying that continues.
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I believe the important take away from the Geneva Rootstock discussion is that the “experts” are often wrong. Even people with a lifetime of experience with apples in my climate zone.
In my case the experts were wrong about the proper dwarf rootstocks and varieties too!
Goldrush which is one of my best apples was suggested by the same Apple PHD that suggested Cameo which is one of my worst apples. A well known apple expert suggested Winesaps and Grimes for my area, neither of which worked very well.
On farm variety trials remove a lot of the risk but take a lot of time. The trials become very complex when varieties, rootstocks and grafting methods like budding or cleft grafting need to be tested at the same time.
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Other articles worth reading if you’re not up to contact nurseries and orchards.
The good and bad of different rootstocks
Problematic pairings with Geneva 935
Researchers put virus theory to trial in G.935 decline
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