Manhart's book - your opinion on a few varieties

Zone 6a in the city…

The 1995 Apples for the 21st Century by Warren Manhart still seems incredibly relevant 25 years later. I so wish he would have updated it every decade but I’m sure this was not easy with limited real-estate.

Have you any experience growing / tasting these varieties that appear on page 207? I have very limited city real estate and plan to espalier / spindle my trees on 4’ centers:

Ashmead’s
Hudson’s Golden Gem
Karmijn de Sonnaville
Keepsake ← yummy too (besides all its other attributes?)
Kinap Sandil ← is this just a novelty in appearance or is it yummy too?
Kidd’s Orange Red
New York #429 (?)
Orleans ← is this a russet? I love russets
Tydeman’s late Orange ← want to learn more about this particularly…
Wickson (which I’m already growing at another location (2nd leaf))

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I have Ashmead’s Kernel in the 3rd leaf on dwarf rootstock. No blooms or fruit yet but Ashmead’s has a reputation as being a shy bearer.

Although Stephen Hayes has a video with Ashmead’s that shows it covered with fruit. In fact, when I first saw the tree my first thought was “boy that tree really needs to be thinned”. Of course I would probably find it difficult to thin too since I would want every apple I could get.

As far as growth habit the tree has good vigor but the growth habit is pretty vertical. I did quite a bit of branch bending this year in order to simulate fruit production.

I would go visit the orange pippin website. They have detailed descriptions of the apples and tree habits for a bunch of apple trees. I have added the link for Ashmead’s Kernel below. There are several tabs for each apple entry. The “fruit id” tab has information about fruit description, tree habit, and fruit uses. The “review” tab has reviews from different people who grow and eat the apple-for example Ashmead’s Kernel has 44 reviews and each review also gives the location of the reviewer. The locations are helpful since how apples do and taste is often location dependent. Quite a few of the other apples on your list have entries as well. I am sure quite a few people on the forum have experience with the apples on your list too as I have seen older posts about them. You might even try searching for the older posts by apple name and see what you can dig up.

https://www.orangepippin.com/varieties/apples/ashmeads-kernel

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Do you mean Kandil Sinap? This is not novelty, this variety has been known since at least early 1800s. In my experience, it has a nice flavor, but not something extraordinary. Very precocious.

I think you should put more attention into what will grow successfully in your climate, with disease/pest pressure characteristic to your place.

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Hi!

Like you, I’ve been working with espalier in a smaller in-town yard. Our oldest trees will be starting their fourth year from bench-grafting in the spring, and there are signs that we may be starting to get fruit from some of them in the near future.

Out of the varieties that you mention, I am growing Ashmead’s, Kidd’s, and Orleans Reinette. Again, no fruit yet, but here are a few thoughts on my experience with each so far:

Ashmead’s has been a very slow grower to this point for me. Other factors may be at play (moved it out of the nursery too late one spring, and it may be dealing with some root competition from a nearby maple tree). But, doesn’t seem like the most vigorous variety. Fairly healthy but will get a bit of CAR.

Kidd’s has mostly been pretty smooth sailing so far, and its growth habit seems particularly amenable to espalier. Kind of right in the sweet spot in terms of vigor and branching tendencies. It does seem to attract more aphids than most of my trees (a characteristic of the Cox family, from what I understand), but that hasn’t been a major issue once I learned to keep an eye out for it.

Orleans Reinette has been a nice, healthy tree, but it seems to want to frizz out into clusters of twiggy growth when it gets headed back, as one does in some of the espalier systems. Not a big deal but something to keep an eye out for. Also, it seems to have a tendency to get going late and keep going late in terms of leafing out/vegetative growth. (Westfield Seek No Further has also shown this tendency for me.) A little bit on the less vigorous end.

Of these varieties, I have tasted Ashmead’s and Orleans Reinette, though very limited samples and not my own fruit. Ashmead’s was good but not out-of-this-world good (it may have needed more time to mellow), but Orleans was really terrific: crisp, rich, and at the same time almost effervescent. One of the best apples I’ve ever eaten. (In answer to your question, it seems to tend more to partial russet than to a full coat - a very pretty apple.)

Another variety not on your list that I would rate very highly is Roxbury Russet. Not highly vigorous, at least in its early years, but seems very healthy and espalier-friendly, and really exceptional in terms of flavor (to my taste anyway - and again, not yet based on my own fruit).

Thinking about others that seem to be working particularly well for us, I would mention Hunt Russet, Fall Russet, Pitmaston Pineapple, and Cornish Aromatic.

Note: We are in 5b/6a. Our trees are growing in several stretches of Belgian fence, so overlapping Ys on 2’ centers, and we grafted them on G41 (mostly) and G202 (I think). For my purposes, G41 seems to provide a good level of vigor for most varieties, though some might call for a little more (Ashmead’s and Pumpkin Russet) and some others maybe a little less (Black Oxford and Wheeler’s Golden Russet).

Tydeman’s is also intriguing to me. (And I should try and track down that book.)

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I grafted a Kidd’s Orange. Grew the tree 8 years and no fruit. Others grafted same time had borne fruit for several years already (Cortland, Macoun, NW Greening).

I decided to top work it over to other varieties. While doing that this past Spring I found a dried up apple on one side of the tree. I never noticed it the year before. I left that branch on in hope it bears again but not sure why it would take my Kidd’s orange so long to bear one apple.

Cleft grafted the tree over to King David and Spartan.

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Just for what it’s worth the Kidd’s Orange I grafted took off and bore nicely the third year. On the other hand, my attempts at Macoun have been really frustrating- I can barely get the grafts to take, let alone bear. I think it’s probably a compatibility issue, but maybe I’ve just been clumsy each time I’ve tried to graft Macoun …

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I don’t grow any of these, but I order Ashmeads every year (I work in a kitchen). It is a very tasty, crisp apple, but I would say Roxbury Russet is very similar, but about two steps better than Ashmeads in both flavor and texture. As for the growing habits, I am not sure.

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Neither one is mushy, are they? My family hates tender, soft flesh in apples. I need to find older firm fleshed, very good tasting apples. I have been looking at both of these.

Neither were mushy. I tried a lot of the old apples in the last couple of weeks with my co-workers. Ashmeads, Roxbury, Black Oxford, Zabergau, Blue Pearmain, Belle de Boskoop, Twenty Ounce, Lamb’s Abby, probably a few more that I can’t remember. I can say that every single person that tried them with me all agreed that Roxbury was the best in flavor and texture. I think Ashmeads is close behind, it’s just a little mealy but still quite good.

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That sounds like what I remember, Casey. Roxbury has a distinctive break-off-in-chunks texture (I think I’ve seen it compared to coconut) and a memorable-yet-difficult-to-describe flavor. Kind of tropical somehow.

Am I right in recalling that there’s some question about whether the Ashmead’s Kernel that’s most commonly found in the US is actually the genuine article?

@marknmt re Macoun: Somehow it seems like the things you really want to take are the hardest to get to work. Maybe pretend it’s a Red Delicious next time…

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