Does anyone here know what the HYD abbreviation means?
I’d ask Clifford but he’s very busy this time of year.
The Uzbeg tribe flourished in Turkey in 13-14th century and a portion of their historic fruit groves incl. persimmon still remain.
The Balesfield tree repository in the U.K. lists Persimmon Uzbeg as D. kaki.
England’s Orchard lists UZBEG HYD in Row #4 Tree #14.
Just to avoid confusion: The introduction of D Kaki to Turkey happened ~200+ years ago. On the other hand, D. lotus originated there. So the Uzbek historic groves were probably D. lotus. Nobody should jump to the conclusion that 13-14th century plantings were D. Kaki.
B1persimmonpdf.pdf (347.2 KB)
I believe you mean D. virginiana. The Chinese persimmon has been there for over 1 millennium.
I do agree that the Uzbegs were growing D. lotus, among other things. For more details check with publications from U. Izmir.
[quote=“Richard, post:3, topic:51270”]
I believe you mean D. virginiana. The Chinese persimmon has been there for over 1 millennium.
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I only know what I read in the attached scientific article. Here’s one relevant excerpt:
<< It is believed that the country is one of the origin centers of Diospyros lotus (Onur, 1985) The other species (Diospyros kaki and Diospyros oleifera) have been introduced from other countries at least 200 years ago. >>
… does not mean at most 200 years ago.
RIght. But just a little further down, the Turkish authors start a sentence saying, “During the 200 years growing period . . . .” They didn’t say during the 1000 year or even >200 year growing period."
They also didn’t say D. chinensis. At the time of publication they were likely unaware D. chinensis is a synonym of D. kaki. See Kew taxonomy for more details.
Further, the importation of D. chinensis over 1 millennium ago is well-documented. I recommend you start using scholar.google.com for your searches.
LOL, I did use Google Scholar. The article I linked is the first one to come up. The second one (also Turkish authors, 2018 publication) says this:
“Persimmon (D. kaki) . . . was imported in Europe (South France) for the first time in 1760. Thereafter it spread to the Mediterranean coast (Italy, Spain, Greece, Turkey and Algeria).”
I’ll believe any credible scientific source that you post. Maybe you could use Google Scholar and provide a link to an informative article. I tried searching “chinensis” but there are so many species with that name that I found nothing helpful.
In Turkic languages there’s a sound that’s somewhere in between of English “k” and “g” sounds, so “Uzbeg” is likely just another spelling of “Uzbek”. Quite probably, this is just a variety from Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan is the largest exporter of persimmon fruit to the countries of the former USSR. It has large areas where D. kaki can be grown.
My guess is that HYD means hybrid, but only Cliff knows for sure.
He does use HYD in 4 places where the cultivar is clearly a hybrid. Elsewhere he uses HYB. It could be misplaced on Uzbeg.
So the trees are 800 years old?
Be serious!
Grygorievaetal.2009_2-3.pdf (494.2 KB)
This article has D. Kaki coming to Ukraine in the 1800s.
That prompts a question: If D. Kaki was widely planted in northern Anatolia more than 1000 years ago, as alleged above, what blocked movement of those persimmons across the Black Sea to southern Ukraine, including Crimea?
p.s. There was a major Viking trade route running down the Dnieper through what became Kiev, then to Kherson and Crimea, then across the Black Sea to Constantinople. The Vikings were traders. They brought commodities such as amber and slaves south, then carried Asian goods such as spices and metals north to Poland, the Baltic, and Scandinavia. Transporting persimmon trees from Turkey to southern Ukraine would have been child’s play.
Yes, and the Romans Normans took them to England circa 1100 A.D. About that same time, the Romans Normans declared that everyone in their empire must have a surname for tax collection purposes. Thus arose the surname Stowe from the village of Stow-on-the-Wold. Two main branches evolved over time – those who settled in London and those who migrated to Dover (mine) and ports to the south.
LOL, Roman presence in Britain ended in 410 A.D.
Surnames in Britain date back to the Normans (e.g., William the Conqueror), who took over in Britain in 1066 (Hastings).
Thank you for the correction, yes it was the Normans!
OK, so now that that is cleared up:
Can you supply any documentation that the Normans brought persimmons (D Kaki) to Britain? It it plausible that Norman knights brought plants from Anatolia to France / England after the 1st Crusade (1096). But I still believe that it would have been D. lotus.
Can you explain why the Vikings would not have brought persimmons to Ukraine - a much shorter trip – well before the 1800’s? Or do you have evidence of persimmons in Ukraine >1000 years ago too? If so, again can you supply documentation?
Thanks!