Actually there is some paper discussing D. kaki in Europe that mentions circa 1100 A.D. in England. I’ll have a look – but that computer is in the middle of solving 32M linear systems.
I’ve wondered for a long time if in Homer’s recording of oral tales the mention of Lotus eaters might be connected to D. lotus. There is archeological evidence of them being cultivated in the upper Alazani valley circa 1200 B.C.
Can you supply a paper for that?
And if not the Vikings, why not the Mongolians?
I’m still looking myself. Found this:
<< Sir Joseph Banks, botanist on Captain James Cook’s first voyage around the world, is credited with the introduction of Diospyros kaki into Europe, while the first trees of the kaki in North America prob- ably were grown from seeds obtained in Japan by Commodore Perry in 1856. >>
Cook’s 1st voyage ended in 1771.
1979-39-5-notes-on-persimmons-kakis-date-plums-and-chapotes.pdf (1.0 MB)
As noted above (see. link), Grygorieva has D. Kaki coming to Ukraine in the 1800s.
I agree that the Mongols could have brought the persimmon. I just know of no evidence that they actually did.
It seems more likely that Genovese traders (e.g., Marco Polo), who visited the Mongol court (e.g., Kublai Khan), could have brought back some trees. But again, there is no evidence (that I’ve seen) that D. Kaki came to Europe or West Asia by that route.
? I don’t see a link to a paper by Grygorieva. But also I recall her papers discuss plantings at the original Prussian academic orchard in Kyiv through the present day academic orchards throughout Ukraine.
I believe that at the time of that writing, D. kaki and D. chinensis were considered different species.
There’s a research group in Europe (at CIRAD?) who have been attempting to trace origins of (now landrace) fruits from China (then species). I came across a few of their papers while researching use of genetic markers. Anyway they have been building a database of suspected precursors to the landrace plants found along the silk road. I believe persimmon is among them.
<< I don’t see a link to a paper by Grygorieva. >>
It seems to be in my Post #14 . . . .
<< There’s a research group in Europe (at CIRAD?) who have been attempting to trace origins of (now landrace) fruits from China (then species). I came across a few of their papers while researching use of genetic markers. Anyway they have been building a database of suspected precursors to the landrace plants found along the silk road. I believe persimmon is among them. >>
Well if you can firm this up, please let me know. My impression is that the Silk Road traversed land that was both generally too dry and seasonally too cold to support persimmons,
One of sites is in southern Turkmenistan.
There are a number of posts in this thread that are hidden from my view. If #14 is your post, then you have two user ID’s?
Yes. Of course, I can’t be sure what you see, only what I see.
Here’s the specific quote, the very first words after the abstract:
<< Persimmon introduction and expansion in Russian speaking countries took place earlier than in the rest of Europe (Bellini et al., 2003). The first seeds of Japanese persimmon were planted in the Nikita Botanical Garden in Yalta in 1819, but the plants of this attempt were not able to survive (Richter, 1970). Successful propagation of Japanese persimmon in the Botanical Garden started by the end of the 19th century by the cultivar ‘Kostata’, resistant against frost. >>
In this article, Olga G. is referring to plantings at academic institutions that are within the boundaries of the present-day Ukraine.
Richard, I think your precision is leading you astray.
The quote that I referenced states: "Persimmon introduction and expansion in Russian speaking countries took place earlier than in the rest of Europe (Bellini et al., 2003). The first seeds of Japanese persimmon were planted in the Nikita Botanical Garden in Yalta in 1819 . . . "
The context is “persimmon introduction . . . in Russian speaking countries,” which includes Crimea at the time. When Grygorieva says that the first seeds of Japanese persimmon were planted . . . in Yalta in 1819," she clearly means that this represents the introduction of Japanese persimmons to Russian speaking countries.
Moreover, the first sentence of the abstract states, “The first written documents mentioning the persimmon introduction to the Ukrainian territory, are dated in the year 1888.” So no written documents even mentioned the persimmon in Ukraine until 1888. Thus there is no written evidence of persimmon in Ukraine prior to the 1800s. Maybe you have archeological evidence that would shake up our understanding.
Finally, Grygorieve states that successful propagation in Ukraine started with the variety “Kostata” (aka Costata aka Picudo), which come from Italy! Prior to the late 1800s, seedlings died – which hardly suggests that the seeds came from native cultivars. In the early 1900s, other varieties were imported from East Asia: “Since 1901 several research projects of the Nikita Botanical Garden in Krym have been focused on persimmon varieties characterisation, dealing with those introduced from China and Japan.” Never is there any mention of either local Ukrainian or nearby Anatolian D. Kaki trees.
@jrd51 , @jrd51
As the saying goes, you should put your money where your mouth is and go research the topic for yourself instead of requesting others do it for you. I will no longer follow your posts, regardless of which account you use. Others of course might have an interest in debating your theories.
In general, I don’t ask you to “do research” unless you make a statement that demands empirical support – like persimmons in ancient Turkey or medieval Britain. You still haven’t come up with anything more there than outrageous leaps of faith. Or unless you make a justifying claim such as “it’s in the public record” in which case I may ask you to show us because usually it isn’t.
As for the “jrd” vs “jrd51” confusion – two days ago I had reason to delete all history and cookies from my laptop. The process deleted my old passwords. Somehow when I re-entered this forum, I got a new account – like a brand new user. I became aware that there were dual accounts only this morning, so I deleted the new one.
I’m sorry if my brief use of the name “jrd” tricked you into treating me civilly. You actually thanked me for a correction!!!
