PS Red Fern scions went on sale today.
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This was my first year getting Rosseys. I left some on the tree into winter because I watched EL’s video. In my location in the Ozarks Rossey began to mold and rot while still astringent if it didn’t ripen before we started consistently freezing and thawing.
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Need some help for my persimmon presentation im doing in February.
Any visual examples of making your own persimmon crosses ? like pics or videos?
Like pretend crossing Americans or Asians with Hybrids (or I guess since the male/female flowers are prob all similar just a straight-up American to American crosses?).
I only have experience crossing peppers. So curious if you have to for example do these steps:
- take pollen from male flower (or a full male flower that has pollen inside). Store if needed if it blooms be4 your female tree’s flowers.
- take an unopened, but plump and about-to-open, female flower (to make sure nothing else pollinates it) and open it.
- rub the male pollen with a q-tip (or take off the outside pedal parts of the flower and just rub the inside of the male flower on the now opened female flower,
- bag it (to isolate and make sure nothing else pollinates it) and tag it (for reference what you crossed with it).
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Also i’d like to present a chart on what you can graft …
| onto American virginiana | onto Asian kaki | onto Hybrid | onto Lotus | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| American scion | yes | no | ? | ? |
| Asian scion | yes (more hardy and better for east coast/wet weather) | yes (maybe better for milder but wet climates like in Japan) | ? | yes, better rootstock for west coast |
| Hybrid scion | yes | ? | ? | ? |
Can anyone help me fill the blanks?
I wonder if there are any caveats for some parts of the table…
like maybe it is a higher chance of succeeding if grafting from (just some examples):
a 100% American scion onto a hybrid rootstock (or branch) with higher percentage (pretend 75%) American genetics.
or 100% Asian onto a hybrid rootstock (or branch) with higher percentage (pretend 75%) Asian genetics.
or a 75% American hybrid onto a hybrid rootstock (or branch) higher percentage (pretend 75%) American genetics.
or American onto Asian is a no but maybe temporary yes but a long-term graft incapatibility so its basically a no still.
or some caveats where most hybrids in real life are going to be grafted onto top of American rootstock, so not sure if that “onto Hybrid” column needs to be split into “onto Hybrid which is on an American rootstock” vs “onto pure Hybrid rootstock(grown from seed on their own roots)” .
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I got tired of waiting for Tam Kam persimmon to come back into stock on various websites so I ordered 5 sticks of scionwood on Etsy. But now I need some seedlings to graft on.
Looks like KSU is sold out. Anyone have recommendations on where I can get some? I’m hoping for something hardy here in at the 6b/7a line in Boston. cc @tonyOmahaz5 and @mamuang
Fruitwood nursery has some
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Your zone is similar to @jrd51. He grows a lot of persimmons. Hope he will chime in.
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I don’t grow Tam Kam myself but I have a friend in northern RI who (I think) grows it. PM me and I’ll give you contact info.
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For American persimmon rootstock, you could try Musser Forests in PA.
https://musserforests.com/
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@Petey is interested. I am losing interest in growing persimmons since I like eating non astringent ones which I cannot grow.
I’m going to try tam kam (non-astringent) on american rootstock here. But I’m further east than you with more of a maritime influence, right on the 6b/7a border, so we’ll see.
@TimNH they basically sold out between then and now!
@Saw-whet -thanks. I already have an order out at OGW for some other stuff and they expect to have some more rootstock coming in in February to order, so I may add to that order to save shipping.
Yeah I’ve got him hooked up with my friend.
Would you do pots? I got some excellent fruits from Taishu this year. Potted.
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@carya
maybe another question about this description…
" Nikitskaya Bordovaya AKA Nikita’s Gift – this hybrid was produced at the Nikita Botanical Garden in Yalta, by Oleksandr Kazas 1975, and is a seedling of Rosseyanka crossed back to a Diospyros kaki, so it is approximately 75% Asian persimmon and 25% American."
So if it was a seedling of Rosseyanka crossed back with 100% asian kaki…
Could you say for certain the Rosseyanka seedling is 50/50% american/asian like its parent Rosseyanka?
Wouldn’t it have been pollinated by a 100% asian male or 100% american male flower at the orchard, making that seedling different than 50/50? Pretend it was a male Asian that pollinated Rosseyanka to form that seedling, so the Rosseyanka seedling would be 75% Asian … which then crossed with 100% asian making NG 87.5% Asian?
or maybe suppose it was a male American that pollinated Rosseyanka to form that seedling, so the Rosseyanka seedling would be 75% American which then crossed with a 100% asian, making NG 62.5% asian ?
Some %'s I see from @Richard’s document:
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I believe that the “Rossey 2 Male” used by David Lavergne was the result of open pollination in the U.S., which implies a 75% DV offspring. Reportedly, the “Rossey 2 Male” used in Ukraine to produce Nikita’s Gift was also the result of open pollination, but in Ukraine there were probably more Kaki males, which implies a 75% Kaki offspring.
I have cut down a number of potted fruit trees these days. My back does not like me carry heavy 10-15 gallon pots anymore. I also give up on pampering those not cold hardy fruit trees.
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I was under the impression that ‘Nikita’s Gift’ was a seedling of ‘Rosseyanka’ backcrossed to a pure D.kaki, and thus it is (theoretically) 3/4 D.kaki - 1/4 D.virginiana.
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What I reported is from what I read, then recorded in notes. But it seems wrong.
After seeing your note above, I asked ChatGPT. FWIW, it agrees with you that NG is an open pollinated seedling of Rosseyanka. So the female was Rosseyanka and the male seems unknown. I’m not aware that Ukraine grew DV males and I have no idea whether they used DV males as rootstock (seems doubtful). So the male parent was most likely a Kaki.
It would be very interesting to know whether the Ukrainian collection of Kakis included male-flowering PCAs and male-flowering PCNAs as well as male-flowering PVNAs.
I think i see that “Rossey” is used in alot of crosses and its a seedling of Rosseyanka and OP DV as you said. Maybe this is the ““Rossey 2 Male” you spoke of above.
But this chart below says it was Rosseyanka itself (not a seedling) crossed with a asian/kaki male and hence maybe thats why it ends up 75%? I saw you can click on the OP D.k. part to see its the male (although that can be assumed since Rosseyanka is a female)
Check out this post of mine. Persimmon anthers aren’t like most flowers where you can swipe the pollen off the anther with a brush or something. It’s more effective to tap the flower with something underneath to catch the pollen.
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Is there any reason a hybrid persimmon trees can’t be grown in a pot? I’d guess it wouldn’t be much different than growing an Asian persimmon tree.
LOL, I hope not – I’ve got Nikita’s Gift in a pot. I grafted it 2 years ago. Last season it set ~20 fruits but as the summer progressed it gradually dropped them all.
Meanwhile i’ve ripened fruit on the Kaki varieties Saijo, Taishu, and Nishimura Wase. I’m trusting that a hybrid would be OK.
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