Rubus breeding and ploidy

Wonder if anyone has data on the ploidy of various rubus species;
Raspberry and Blackberry.
As I understand it
The parents must have the same
6n. For successful crosses.
I’m Keen on finding a legitimate hybrid of
Rubus Spectabilis,. Salmonberry.
They thrive in the Puget Sound lowlands
Tolerant of wet feet and low light intensity
The fruits are of modest flavor at best.
A successful Raspberry hybrid would be great.

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I believe Drew51 does.

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A hybrid of two different Ploidy levelled parents would most likely be sterile, right?

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I will keep an eye out for salmonberry when I walk my dog. Raintree sells it, but I am not fond of the price. I want to try cultivating Rubus ursinus I have been finding around. I tasted very good berries this year, and I would like to see if cultivation will improve the quality.

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Salmonberry grows easily from cuttings.
No need to let Raintree gouge you.

What is Rubus Ursinus?

Trailing blackberry/ Pacific blackberry. They are dioecious, have tiny seeds, and are very sweet and flavorful.

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Have them locally. Yes they’re good, but the plants are either male or female, and not very productive.

Do salmonberries yield better? I have males and females, so they are setting fruit well. I don’t know the yield, and will have to see how they compare to my Freedom berries.

Salmonberry has had little attention from breeders. Yield vary, but in general
They don’t seem to be all that productive.
Flavor varies also.
I find the Orange ones are better tasting than the Red ones, though less attractive.
I’d love to get a viable hybrid of the Salmonberry, but I don’t know what to cross it with.
F1 hybrids with Raspberry are mostly sterile mules.
I’ve got a good tasting one behind my house.

I remember looking this up a while ago, and finding that there are actually many different species of blackberry, with all possible ploidies, and blackberry breeders seem to cross different ploidies willy-nilly to get new cultivars. If you look up some new blackberry varieties and the ploidies of the varieties crossed to get them, you’ll find some surprises.

I am curious about the ploidy of Rubus Spectabilis:
the Salmonberry.
I have a superior selection in my back yard.
Wondering what other rubus would be potentially compatible.

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What would I get from seeds of a Tayberry?
It’s a Raspberry/Blackberry hybrid.
Would it come true to seed?

Tayberry is a blackberry x raspberry hybrid.

Female blackberry (56 chromosomes) male raspberry (14 chromosomes)

Just like loganberry i think there was a mistake/mutation in one or more of the pollen of the raspberry (2n=2x=14) to make diploid pollen.
and that lead to a successful hybrid of the two. (i think the blackberry was 2n=8x=56) both cases here x=7

blackberry’s seem to be available in a wide array of ploidy from 2n=2x=14 to 2n=12x=84 (with 2x, 4x, 6x, etc)

depends on what pollinated it. I don’t know if the self pollinated seeds are viable.
If it can self, likely 2n=2x=42 offspring

If you follow proper naming convention, it’s a
Blackberry (female) times raspberry (male, pollen donor) hybrid

I’m assuming from self pollination?


Hybrids usually don’t come true from seed.
On average from chromosome number id expect the offspring to lean towards blackberry. But that’s just an “average guess” since i don’t know how “dominant” the raspberry genes are vs the blackberry. And which paired up in the tayberry. (did the 14 from raspberry pair up with 14 from blackberry? and the remaining 14 of blackberry pair with themselves? or a combination? i don’t know enough about this to make even an educated guess)
easiest way to find out is to sow some.

Not completely true.
in the case of tayberry, there was a fault during chromosome separation in the pollen production of the raspberry. And thus it had 2n pollen. Where the blackberry flower had 1n. This combination lead to a lower chromosome number compared to blackberry and higher compared to raspberry.

likely if you had a 4n (tetraploid) raspberry you would get pollen that could fertilize a blackberry to produce new tayberry hybrids.
Since the standard pollen on that would be 2n.

This paper (Target Capture Sequencing Unravels Rubus Evolution) says Salmonberry is diploid and closely related to nagoon berry. I know that nagoon berries are famous for their delicious flavor and have been crossed with domestic raspberries so I don’t see any barriers to crossing salmonberry with domestic raspberry other than lack of interest. If you do encounter difficulty it might make sense to start with a domestic raspberry that has already been crossed nagoon berry.

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An example of where that is true is with Musa, and where it is false is with Morus.

The word “hybrid” can be confusing. When we discuss hybrids in the sense of crossing two cultivars of the same species then we expect the F1 offspring not to grow true to type from its own seed.

On the other hand when discussing an interspecies cross that happens to produce self-fertile A x b, then depending on the Genus its own seeds may grow as A x b.

Unfortunately the researchers used a popular Bayesian genetic structure method that has very low confidence. It is not their fault - it is a widely accepted mispractice in Biology.

Never heard of a Nagoon Berry
who offers the seeds or seedlings?