Tell me if I understand the latest generation of Ukrainian hybrid persimmons

General Fruit Growing
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I’m dreaming of future breeding experiments, which admittedly could only start in 2-3 years. My starting point would be existing hybrids, including JT-02, Kassandra, and a group of Ukrainians (see below).

Trying to get my ducks in a row, which would include acquire some scions, I’m thinking through the traits of these varieties. I already grow established trees of JT-02 and Kasandra; I have a young tree of Chuchupaka and a grafted branch of Stepova Krasunya. In any case, I need to firm up my knowledge of the Ukrainians. So I’m thinking out loud here. Please add or correct as appropriate:

Starting at the beginning, Rossiyanka is DV x Kaki (i.e., 50% Kaki).

Nikitskaya Bordovaya is Rosseyanka x Kaki (i.e., 75% Kaki).

Five relatively recent releases are Nikitska Bordovaya x DV (37.5% Kaki)

  1. Sosnovskaya
  2. Chuchupaka
  3. Stepova Krasunya
  4. Bozhyi Dar
  5. Universal

As noted, I’m viewing these as raw material for future breeding. Based on their shared ancestry I’d expect them all to be quite similar. So a decision to focus efforts on one or another will depend on subtleties . . .

Sex. I believe that all five were the result of open pollination, and the presumed male parent is some male-flowering American such as Early Golden. Three of the five are monoecious, so they appear to have retained the male-flowering trait from the American parent. Obviously this trait would be useful, though expression of this trait evidently varies. Universal is the most proven pollinator, followed by Bozhyi Dar; Stepova is unproven.

Cold hardiness. Reportedly, Stepova Krasunya is hardy to ~ -22 to -24 C (-8F), the others to at least -26 to -27 C (-17 F). Sosnovskaya may be good to -30 C (-22 F).

Astringency. As far as I can see, only Bozhyi Dar is described as naturally low astringency (though not non-astringent). This is not an expected variation within this group based on its ancestry but might be worth using.

Parthenocarpy. Chuchupaka is described as poorly parthenocarpic; a pollinator boosts yields notably. The others seem fully parthenocarpic.

Ripening. In Ukraine, Universal ripens in early October, Sosanovskaya in late October, the rest in the middle.

Based on all of this information, it seems to me that Universal is the optimal choice. It is a reliable producer of pollen; it ripens relatively early; it is hardy to -17 F; it is parthenocarpic. Bozhyi Dar seems the second choice.

Thoughts?

p.s. I have deliberately excluded Dar Sofiyivki, which I am also growing as a young tree. I’m focused here on the recent descendants of Nikita’s Gift x DV, basically trying to narrow the choices among these siblings.

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Good breeding practice is to select parents based on desirable and complementary traits. If the female parent has good cold tolerance but fruit size and flavor are poor, then cross with a variety that has good fruit size and flavor.

IMO, there is a lot of room for improvement from crossing with pure D.v. Mohler would be one very good possibility. It is early, good flavored, and very cold tolerant.

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What specific shortcomings are you referring to? And in which existing cultivars?

Re DV: By my count, the development of these 5 Ukrainian hybrids included 3 crosses. Two of these three crosses included pure DV: (1) DV x Kaki produced Rosseyanka; then later (2) Nikita’s Gift x DV produced the 5 varieties in focus. So to your point, what specific traits would we be trying to incorporate that we missed in these early crosses?

FWIW, I’m focusing on existing hybrids as the state of the art. I’m focused on a few traits: cold hardiness, early ripening, great taste, good texture.

--------------------Cold Hardy----------Early Ripening----------Great Taste----------Good texture
Kasandra------------Yes---------------------No--------------------------Yes---------------------Yes
JT-02----------------- Yes---------------------No--------------------------OK----------------------No
Dar Sof---------------Yes---------------------Yes-------------------------Yes---------------------Yes
Universal-------------Yes---------------------Yes-------------------------OK---------------------Yes

So for example, I can imagine using Universal to modify both Kasandra and JT-02. Kasandra would benefit from earlier ripening (and bigger size). It does not need more DV flavor. JT-02 would benefit from earlier ripening, firmer texture, and added DV flavor. Size is adequate.

Do you have any other crosses to suggest?

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Mohler brings earlier ripening than any of the crosses or even most other D.v.

Morris Burton is potentially a different mechanism for non-astringency.

Both of them have high potential to increase cold tolerance.

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This is really a discussion for another thread. That said . . .

It’s interesting that you selected two varieties found in the wild. It’s as if you don’t believe that decades of crossing and selection of DV varieties by people like Claypool accomplished anything.

Mohler is reported to be very early ripening. The flavor is described as good but mild – missing the richness and caramel that appeals in some Americans and Hybrids. So that doesn’t seem a big plus. Also, I don’t need a persimmon that ripens in August; but I’d prefer one that ripens in September or October. Maybe I can get there using a relatively early-ripening hybrid such as Universal and/or Dar Sofiyivki.

I’m growing Morris Burton to test it. So far I’ve ripened only a few fruit. They were sweet but tiny, like eating grapes. Small size is not a trait I want to reproduce. Also, I think the former hype about MB’s non-astringency is baloney. Nobody who grows MB believes that it is non-astringent. The supposed genetic evidence presented is worthless.

Re cold tolerance, just about any DV should have the potential to increase the cold tolerance of just about any hybrid. That’s the pattern in past crosses, so it’s a given. But Kasandra, JT-02, Dar Sofivivki, and 4 of these 5 more recent children of Nikita’s Gift are all hardy to -17 F or better. That already gives me a 10 degree cushion below the lowest temperature I’ve seen here in 13 years. So added cold tolerance isn’t a priority for me; I simply have to be sure not to sacrifice the cold tolerance of current varieties.

Finally, both Mohler and Morris Burton are female. What are you imagining is the ideal male? I’m not opposed to another DV x Hybrid cross, but what is the appropriate male?

Are you attempting to cross Mohler yourself?

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iirc, Universal produces male flowers. It would be a good starting point for crossing to a pure D.v. including Mohler and Morris Burton. None of us can predict the results that may come out of some of these crosses. Who knows, you might find a persimmon that exceeds anything currently available for flavor, hardiness, size, and production.

I think you are missing a few points. Mohler gives pure American persimmon traits in an early maturing variety. In one cross, you should be able to combine large fruit, earlier (within reason) maturity, and better cold tolerance. While you might not have had any colder temps than -10 in the last 13 years, there are lots of people who have colder temps and would love to find a really good persimmon adapted to say -25F to -30F. Most of the current hybrids can’t go that low but several pure D.v. can!

Since your list of varieties has been discussed several times, I was attempting to name varieties you do not currently have. Dar Sofiyivkiy is one that should be near the top of the list for making crosses. I did not name it because you already have it. Why did I not name it? Because the problem with making persimmon crosses is with getting a tree to at least 8 years old when most of them will bear fruit. That means you should pick the varieties you want to cross now and get plants started anticipating crosses to be made in 2032 to 2035 timeframe.

My suggestion is simple. Find varieties with complementary traits to the varieties you already have and get them started now anticipating having fruiting trees when you need them. Look outside of the varieties you have now! You might consider calling Cliff England to ask which varieties he thinks might be good complementary partners for your crosses.

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I don’t disagree. My OP is all about figuring out the goals, acquiring the necessary scions, planning for future crosses. Of the 5 highlighted recent releases, I am growing one of them (Chuchupaka) after grafting it last year and another (Stepova Krasunya) because I grafted it this year. The other three are up for discussion. All five are outside the varieties I have fruiting now. So basically, I’m following your suggestion. And really you’re preaching to the choir.

More important, I asked questions to ensure that I understand the strengths and weaknesses of these 5 Ukrainian hybrids, which I find potentially useful raw material – given my goals. Somebody else may want to execute new crosses using wild DV discoveries to achieve other objectives. Just not me. I’d like to get the thread back own topic.

Maybe you can start another thread on DV (female) x Hybrid (male) crosses. Or whatever.

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I’ve given more thought to possible crosses. Here’re some preliminary ideas. @Fusion_power, I think you’ll find these ideas consistent with your descriprtion of good breeding practice.

  1. Some male-flowering hybrids have excellent taste and ripen either early or mid-season but might be improved by a cross that brings non-astringency. So I’d try Luo Tian Tian Shi x Universal and Luo Tian Tian Shi x Bozhyi Dar.

  2. Some female-flowering hybrids have decent taste but poor texture, also ripening somewhat late. The taste, texture and ripening might be improved by a dose of DV. So I might try JT-02 x Early Golden (or similar), which is 100% DV, and JT-02 x Universal, which is 62.5% DV.

  3. Some female-flowering hybrids have excellent taste but small size, also ripening somewhat late. The size and ripening might be improved by cross with a large, early-ripening hybrid variety. So I might try Chuchupaka x Bozhyi Dar or Kasandra x Bozhyi Dar.

  4. Some hybrids have excellent taste and large size but ripen late. The ripening might be improved by a cross with an early-ripening DV or hybrid variety. So I might try Kolgospnytsa x Early Golden (or similar) and Stepova Krasunya x Universal.

Note that where I’ve suggested the possible use of a male-flowering DV variety, the female hybrids (JT-02, Kolgospnytsya) have only one DV cross in their ancestry in contrast to two DV crosses for many other hybrids.

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That is a tad better and shows some thought made about the crosses. I can see that you are thinking more about earlier ripening. Size, flavor, ripening period, cold tolerance, disease tolerance, and others are the high level traits in play.

Have you considered some of the best D. kaki as possible parents? You have Taishu which might make a really good parent used on Dar Sofiyivkiy. Saijo might be another good parent crossed with Taishu. It would of necessity make all astringent offspring, but that might be a good step for a second cross back to another variety such as Luo Tian Tian Shi

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Darrel,

As I try to follow this discussion, and consider your point of 8 years for any new hybrid to produce fruit, it seems to me that getting a new hybrid with viable seed is most important so that the seedling can be grafted onto a mature tree to accelerate the speed of seeing the fruit results.

I read this online and wonder what you think? “60-Chromosome American Persimmons: Native to the southern Appalachian region and the South, these are highly prized by breeders. Crossing a 60-chromosome Virginiana male with a 90-chromosome Kaki female (or a 90-chromosome hybrid) balances the ploidy levels better, which is necessary to produce viable seeds and successful hybrids. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]”
Since JRD wants to cross pollinate Asian hybrids, the author of the above statement seems to be saying to produce a new F4 generation hybrid a tetraploid would be better.

Dennis

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Don’t bet the house.

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I have not seen any evidence that a tetraploid X hexaploid can be made by straight breeding. In a lab, maybe. The cross that I think might make more sense would be to cross a diploid X hexaploid and use embryo rescue to pull out some tetraploid seedlings. This would give a route for bringing large size and other Asian traits into the tetraploid population. This is obviously speculation with nobody I know of even attempting to make such crosses.

D.v. tetraploid has some very interesting traits among which; it makes a much taller tree, is more adaptable to hot climates, and tends to produce ebony wood as it ages. I have trees growing behind my house that are over 12 inches diameter and up to 60 feet tall. That is not where I want to be picking fruit! But it is a good sign these trees are highly adapted to this general region.

This is pretty far off from jrd51’s objective for this thread.

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That’s no more cold Hardy than Bull’s Heart, but if you plant bull’s heart somewhere close to that cold, you’ll probably never get a ripe fruit off of it in your whole life though, but you’ll have a nice dwarf Japanese persimmon that won’t be much more than 7 feet tall, but the real way that tree shines is it might actually have genes to ripen fruit in those conditions.

As a pollinator this is the clear winner. Universal has fruits that are so small I suspect that it was accidentally a product of crossing with Caucasian persimmon as opposed to American persimmon, whether that’s true or not, it may carry tiny fruit genetics, and that’s why God’s Gift, Bozhiy Dar, is the one that I would choose, because I would expect you’d actually get good fruit from it’s offspring.

Sosnovskaya seems like the perfect cold hardy female tree and is able to produce fruit without pollination, but I assume like American trees, it will produce seeds if pollinated.

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No. Kaki means reduced cold hardiness. For example, almost every time the Ukrainians used a Kaki in a cross, the cold hardiness got worse. And in general as far as I’ve seen, the flavor of Kakis is inferior to the flavor of the better hybrids.

My focus is entirely on cold hardy varieties. So I’ll start with hardy hybrids. Where helpful, I’d try to incorporate DV mainly to affect ripening and flavor; but added cold hardiness could be a plus.

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As noted, the lowest temperature I’ve ever experienced here is -7 F. Even my IKKJ survived that episode, if just barely.

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@Trav –

Stepova Krasunya – Understood. I don’t need a variety to be any hardier that -22 C, but I’d sure prefer it. SK belongs in Category #4 above – large size but late ripening – so it should also be considered a candidate for crossing with DV or a cold hardy male-flowering hybrid.

Universal – Again, point taken. The information I’ve seen suggests that Universal is 20-50 g, which is bigger than a typical wild persimmon at ~15-35 g, a little smaller than selected typical American cultivars at 30-70 g, and also a little smaller than my Kasandra at 40-60 g. Bigger would be better. I think the question is whether a cross with a large variety such as Kolgospnytsya or Stepova Krasunya might produce some offspring that are acceptably large and cold hardy.

Bozhy Dar – OK, you make a good point.

Sosnovskaya – The information I’ve seen suggests that this fruit is also somewhat small – ~90 g. And it’s not especially early. So it belongs in Category #3 above – small size and not early ripening. I imagined crossing those varieties with Bozhy Dar.

Thanks for the input.

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Actually, I was doing some research for you and found a reference saying that Bull’s Heart-Bichye Serdtse, is actually a hybrid, I saw it listed as Asian before, and it is usually quoted as cold hardy to -22/-25 C but here it’s listed as Hardy to -25 to -30 C! So that’s more than you need, but the problem for me and colder growers is, you almost never get ripe fruit off of persimmons, including off of hybrids, in the maximum cold end of their range, sure the tree will survive, but you want fruit.

If your breeding program is the real priority over fruit I’d definitely recommend Bull’s Heart, which might or might not give you ripe fruit every year, but it’s pretty warm where you are so I think you’re good. It’s a little hard to find info about this one, but I’m certain it’s a tree that you want to research.

Thanks and it seems like it would be amazing to cross this and Bozhiy Dar.

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It’s late and I’m going to bed. But before I do, a quick comment . . . .

You’re right that once the problem of cold hardiness is solved, there’s still the problem of ripening in a short season. As it is, I just barely ripen Kasandra and JT-02, mostly indoors, here in Z7A. I don’t know if anyone can ever produce a hybrid persimmon that will ripen in a short season region within Z5.

I’ll check out Bull’s Heart.

p.s. The sources I’ve seen suggest that Bull’s Heart is a synonym for Hachiya (or at least a very similar variety), hence 100% Kaki. What evidence do you have that it is a hybrid?

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That’s where Journey sounds like a very good candidate for its american levels of cold hardiness and its exceptionaly early ripening. It might be a good option to cross with the pure kakis though, of the ones that produce pollen.

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Trav, I belive you made the claim that universal may be a cross with diospyros lotus more than once. Do you have any plausible evidence besides ‘fruit are small’?

I don’t have universal myself but from the accounts and pictures of it nothing would suggest this claim is true. D. Lotus looks distinctly different in both leaves and fruit and a hybrid would certainly carry over more of thes traits.

Do you grow it yourself?

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