Two "species" of Morus nigra mulberry?

[Chills]

My potted nigra had the most fruit on it I have ever seen. Unfortunately I missed out on more than half of it with just being too busy during ripening.

Interestingly though, there are a couple seedlings coming up in the pot. I started pulling them while cleaning up and stopped when I realized I may be pulling nigra seedlings and not just regular mulberries. I do have 4 other mulberries in the yard, but these are 25 feet from any other fruiting mulberry…

I will let a few grow out and see what comes of them

Scott

[Bambarbia]

I forgot to mention: they also sell Maclura Pomifera which I ordered too; quote:
“Wood highly valued for making hunting bows. Large green fruit similar to an orange but not very tasty. Wood is slow to decay in the soil. Used as a root stock for the genus Morus.”

I never knew about Maclura Pomifera before!!! I found this page by googling “morus site:www.treeshrubseeds.com” and finding all “morus” pages on their site; they have for example pages with “morus macroura” (dried fruits; white and black) but some site problems, you cannot order it

I googled Maclura Prolifera and found that it is valued as rootstock because mulberries will grow more upright.

here in Canada, nurseries usually prefer Morus Alba Tatarica as rootstock, because of cold hardiness (better than Morus Alba); although Morus Alba hybrids grows everywhere as weed, even listed as invasive species.

P.S. I googled it again, “Osage-Orange”, back in Azerbaijan it had a name “Monkey’s Bread”; I don’t think it is good rootstock for Mulberry (Morus Nigra specifically), otherwise we would know already

[Bambarbia]

“Jigsaw pattern” Dwarf Evebearing va. Morus Nigra seedling:

Possibilities are endless. Compare for example young Morus Alba seedling grown in a pot and having a lot of nitrogen in a soil with old established Morus Alba grown in weak soil in a wild. I am assuming “growth hormone” and for example nitrogen may boost cell generation, good amount of other mineral will make leaves stronger, and we will have jigsaw pattern.
Compare Morus Nigra seedling with hundred years old tree (which may have fungus and viruses at cell level?)
Compare Dwarf Evebearing seedlings grown in different conditions: soil, light, temperature
Just thoughts we need “blind tests” (not sure if I correct with terminology)

[Livinginawe]

Possibilities are endless.

I agree with you totally…I certainly hope my hasty observations on Morus nigras don’t get quoted in a scientific journal or anywhere else…I was merely pointing out immediate findings that maybe interested parties might want to study further. When genetic sequencing becomes more reliable and inexpensive, maybe then the possibility of more than one highly polyploidy species of mulberry can be studied.

Compare Dwarf Evebearing seedlings grown in different conditions: soil, light, temperature

I’m not sure if you actually mean seedlings here…since if they were seedlings (ie: grown from seeds) then they would no longer be the cultivar ‘Dwarf Everbearing’. But yes, it is possible that the ‘Dwarf Everbearing’ loses its “jigsaw” cell pattern under certain conditions or growth stages.

[Bambarbia]

Two species of Morus Nigra? Four!!!

Forget California, have a trip to Turkey:

• Erzincan karadut, 16 M. nigra Medium
• Kemaliye karadut 9 M. nigra Medium
• Gumushaci karadut 8 M. nigra Medium
• Hikmet 1 M. nigra Medium

1st column in this table has a title “Genotypes”, and 2dn “Species” (M. nigra)
http://www.thejaps.org.pk/docs/v-22-1/5.pdf

I found this document last year when searching for “Yediveren” mulberry which I got from Turkey (which is translated as “Everbearing”; unfortunately, it didn’t survive in a pot).

[Bambarbia]

This article lists more “cultivars”:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311856389_Black_mulberry_Morus_nigra

It lists as M. Nigra and “originated in USA”:

• Kaester
• Riviera (it says “indigenous to USA”!)
• Wellington

[Bambarbia]

This is interesting, “Google Images” found it,
QUOTE:
In the period of 2005–2007 were experimentally evaluated 964 black mulberry
genotypes grown in 29 villages of Slovakia (Brindza et al. 2007a). Morphological
analyses of fruits resulted in data as follows: fruitage/syncarpy length ranged from
jan.brindza@uniag.sk
212 J. Brindza et al.
Table 15.1 Fruitage variability of black mulberry (Morus nigra L.) population grown in the
territory of Slovakia 10.74 to 27.22 mm and the width from 9.16 to 16.30 mm. The fruits’ weight range was
0.5–4.23 g (Table 15.1).
Interesting differences were found with the black mulberry seeds as well – there are
significant variabilities in the shape, size and colour as documented in Fig. 15.2. The
seeds are donors of important substances and raw material for production of highly
precious oil."

Sorry for multiple edits and messy links
Full PDF is downloadable, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301353946_Forgotten_and_Less_Utilised_Plant_Species_as_Functional_Food_Resources
Springer
ISBN 978-1-4899-7660-4
ISBN 978-1-4899-7662-8

So, such a huge difference in weight of 1000 seeds? 1.8g vs. 7.60g

I trust this research. THey do know what M. nigra is (see fruit pictures at page 211 which shows different sizes and shapes of fruits looking definitely not like “alba”);
QUOTE:
“To control the mulberry distribution on the Slovakia territory, an inventory of
genotypes was made. In 29 village cadastres using GPS system, 964 productive trees
(genotypes) of black mulberry were localised. The highest amount of trees was found
in the Pukanec cadastre (470) and in the surroundings of nearby village Devičany
(115). This locality represents the largest Central European concentration of black
mulberry trees occurring on one place. Black mulberry genotypes in Slovakia are
growing in an altitude range of 146–517.31 m above the sea level; anyway 37 % of
trees may be found in the altitude interval of 300–400 m”

[Livinginawe]

Thanks for linking the PDF…It was perhaps the most comprehensive account of Morus nigras fruit composition and uses that I have encountered. One statement I haven’t heard before was “Extract of black mulberry bark was tested on rats, and there was found a positive analgetic effect decreasing the pains more effectively than other drugs”.
By all accounts it is a pretty amazing plant.

[Bambarbia]

Here are some pictures of Morus Nigra “Black Beauty” which I bought from https://www.whiffletreefarmandnursery.ca/how-to-order/#page30 last Spring. It is listed by the nursery as Zone 4/5 Self-Fertile, and I am sure it is hardy to Zone 4 because it is grafted on Morus Alba Tatarica.

It survived first Winter here in Toronto (zone 6b). In Spring I didn’t notice any dieback, all branches were alive and pushing out buds. I believe I didn’t water it enough, hot sunny days in April and still frozen ground, and I lost alive branches.

I believe it is Morus Nigra. It had few fruits this year, looking exactly as in pictures.

Two nurseries in Ontario sell grafted “Persian” mulberries; one nursery in British Columbia were advising me “it won’t grow in Ontario!” referring to some not-so-authoritative sites such as Daves Garden.

I shared more pictures at Google, https://photos.app.goo.gl/dse9K1h87613qSwM7

P.S. Perhaps all “Persian Beauty” or “Black Beauty” in North America are the same DNA, propagated by grafting. I bought two plants, and both plants came with freshly cut-out branch from it, perhaps nursery used it for propagation. Cutting out branch, and then selling. Absolutely sure this nursery doesn’t grow it from seeds

[Livinginawe]

I believe it is Morus Nigra.

Yes…Most definitely is Morus nigra. I sincerely hope you can prove everyone wrong about the northern range of Morus nigra.

[Drew51]

referring to some not-so-authoritative sites such as Daves Garden.

I think Dave’s Garden is well respected. I decided to try nigra in a colder zone, but all reports from other growers said it survives, but has weak growth hardly fruits, and seems to fail to thrive. You can grow it in colder zones, but the plant will not be productive.

Yes…Most definitely is Morus nigra. I sincerely hope you can prove everyone wrong about the northern range of Morus nigra.

Yes all who I have heard speak says it fails to thrive. Just kinda sits there year after year. Eventually declining and dieing The only exception I have seen is the Tsarigradska mulberry from Vratsa Bulgaria. I have a seedling from that tree, the seeds came about when the tree produced it’s own male flowers. So the genetics were mixed up, but all from the same tree. I have two examples growing and so far they too seem unlikely to thrive in this environment. Hope I’m wrong! For now they are protected in the winter. I will be grafting out unto Russian rootstock next spring. So I have a long way to go before I know anything.

[Bambarbia]

referring to some not-so-authoritative sites such as Daves Garden.

I think Dave’s Garden is well respected.

Yes, sorry about that, my fault!

Here is exact quote from TreeEater nursery in BC, Canada; and I referred Daves Garden in my response to them:

… the persian mulberries are self pollinating. i can send you the Black Beauties and Persian Fruiting mulberries (they are about 3-4’ right now) but the white fruiting trees are just too big to mail.

They are hardy to zone 7, which is -18C. so that might be pushing it a bit in your region?
http://www.lecooke.com/Images/Shades/Mulberry/Persian-Fruiting-Mulberry(RGB).pdf
http://www.lecooke.com/Images/Shades/Mulberry/Black-Beauty-Fruiting-Mulberry(RGB).pdf

[Drew51]

Yes, sorry about that,

No worries, I understood what you meant. Only anecdotal evidence, and I agree with you. Please keep us updated on that plant.It looks great so far! Mine is plagued with a bacterial spot at the moment. It’s not going to die, but growth is done for this year because of it. Once dormant I will treat it with both copper (very strong stuff-Kocide, which is the best!) and lime-sulfur too. I will update mine when it’s worth updating. It did grow very well this summer until now anyway. Enough to harvest scion, well for me. At the moment I don’t want to ruin it’s beautiful structure. I will have scion available after the 2020 season.

[Bambarbia]

Capsrum Mulberry (Alba x Rubra hardy selection) is listed as “Canadian origin” in UK site, and this site put Morus Nigra picture I noticed it many times… including eBay sellers and even brand-name companies, they put not-original pictures: https://www.agroforestry.co.uk/product/mulberry-morus-alba-x-rubra-capsrum/

Here is local nursery in Ontario, they have quite huge selection for our region:
https://www.grimonut.com/index.php?p=Products&category=mulberry

I am going to order few plants from them, including Illinois Everbearing, to compare with my Montreal Mulberry (which is super tasty and up to 4cm in length, planted last year Spring, trunk thickness: from 1cm to 6cm in two seasons!):

[moose71]

i just put in a 4’ northrop mulberry from cricket hill farms. was from a tree growing in z3b in upstate N.Y. st. lawrence nurseies first offered it. supposedly very productive. put on 14in. of new growth since spring. had 2 small mulberries on it. tasted pretty good. should produce a small crop next year.

[Bambarbia]

Growing Morus Nigra from Seeds:

Anyone tried to extract seeds from dried fruits I am going to try! Persian stores have it:

And you can clearly see seeds on this picture too! And plant only seeds from best tasting fruits!

[Bambarbia]

Who said that Morus Nigras are hybrids and therefore cannot have seeds? (We are not hybrids!)

From Central Asia:

Described as “sour” taste;
https://www.healthysupplies.co.uk/black-mulberries-100g-samarkand.html

I will definitely try to grow from such seeds!

UPDATE:

I just found few articles,

• Japan is breeding Mulberries since 1916
• Japanese and other scientists described diploids (Morus Alba), triploids, pentaploids, hexaploids, …, 22-ploid (Morus Nigra)
• there is “bridge” method, to finally create hybrid of Morus Nigra, by breeding-hybridization from diploids to higher-ploids

Just putting short summary here; full links at https://growingfruit.org/t/list-of-mulberries-morus-cataloged-by-ncgr-with-links/5525/39

[chriso]

Been trying for 10 years with seeds of M. nigra from Lebanon. 40 seedlings in total. I’m down to 2 and barely alive…I’m giving up. The four US grafted ones are doing well for now but haven’t fruited yet. Keeping my fingers crossed…

[pileta]

Been trying for 10 years with seeds of M. nigra from Lebanon. 40 seedlings in total. I’m down to 2 and barely alive…I’m giving up. The four US grafted ones are doing well for now but haven’t fruited yet. Keeping my fingers crossed…

Same here!
I’v bothered with seedlings for 3 years and end up with only 3 (barely alive). The seeds have low germination rate and the seedlings have very low vitality. I don’t know the reason. I tried ful sun and partial shade (because of hot dry summers) with no result.
Maybe they need some kind of mycorrhizae?

[Caesar]

a nurseryman in Belgium may be about to prove me wrong. He claims to have crossed a male Morus nigra with a female Pakistan (28 chromosome Morus macroura). His nigra looking plant is being tissue culture grown by a university there and then they will do chromosome counting on root tip tissue. If they count 168 chromosomes it will mean proof of a hybrid…I’m keeping my fingers crossed because it may possibly be more disease resistant. The seed grown hybrid fruited in four years and is said to be very good tasting. He has been unsuccessful with nigra x alba crosses, or when the mother was a Morus nigra.

Found this post after searching for Morus nigra hybrids. ¿Any update on this situation? I’d love to see a nigra x macroura hybrid. I’d love to grow one even more.