As it pertains to fruit growing. I already have some Fenitrothion. Permethrin was recommended for nectarines at least (would prefer not to buy it). I need to protect nectarine fruitlets to stop OFM/PC (will bag fruit as soon as fruitlets big enough). Also a Granny Smith apple tree from defoliation by caterpillars. And possibly a bit of citrus tree borer, scale. That’s about all I need to use pesticides on in my garden.
Can I get by with just the Fenitrothion?
I don’t have any experience with Fenitrothion, and you may already know this, but Permethrin is very toxic to cats. So if you have cats, be careful they are not around when you are spraying and that they don’t rub up against anything that may have spray on it (like your clothes).
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It appears you are in Japan. I don’t know anything about the Japanese legal requirements as far as pesticides are concerned. Here in the United States we can legally only use a pesticide if it is labelled for a particular use. I suspect a similar situation exists in Japan. Is Fenitrothion labelled for the applications you want to use it for?
I think probably your best bet for advice would be to talk to someone in Japan or look at a Japanese guide to pesticide use dealing with nectarines and apples. Approved pesticides and their approved uses vary a lot from country to country.
Thanks
Long story, but I’d like to hear what people on this forum know.
Since your concerns about moths, products like Spinosad (considered organic) or BT, would do well against moths.
TheNiceGuy
The last I hear you were growing citrus near your house for the warmer temperatures. How did that work out
Can’t buy those here. Also have specific reasons to ask about the 2 pesticides in my original question.
That’s too bad. I thought there were some licensed pesticide guys on here who knew these things.
On the topic of things people don’t know about, Fantasia nectarine tree in full bloom now, flowers covered with these things:
I don’t think fenitrothion is available in the United States. I have never seen it on a fruit tree spray schedule here. We do have a some International forum members but the bulk of the membership is in the United States. So it’s difficult to offer advice on a chemical use for a chemical that you have no experience with whether you are licensed or not.
When I search for it on the internet it appears to be mainly used on cereal crops rather than fruit trees as far as agricultural use.
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It’s hard to comment on a pesticide like Fenitrothion which I have never seen listed in any spray guide.
You can get some good info on the effectiveness of Permethrin by locating the NC Peach Grower Guide. It was posted in another thread a while back. No mention of Fenitrothion in that guide, but I did read that it is an organophosphate which is the same class of chemicals used in Lorsban or Imidan which are in the described in the publication.
As a general rule organophosphate chemicals are more toxic to mammals an have more restrictive label requirements.
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Thanks guys. I ended up using Fenitrothion that I had on hand, killed everything, appears to be working OK so far. My plan is just to protect the fruitlets long enough until they’re big enough I can get a bag over them. I applied at petal fall, the start of a dry spell forecast for maybe 1-2 weeks.
I have a bit of trouble with the language, and have not been able to contact any local fruit growers using these things yet. The staff selling the pesticides knows less about them than I do. I was able to find one staff member who vouched for Fenitrol being popular to use on anything, and permethrin especially popular for peaches.
The instructions that come with both show them being used on a wide range of fruit and vegetables, from spinach to apples to berries to peaches, killing much of the same insects.
If anything, Fenitrol appears milder. For example, for peaches, both are advised as max 6 sprays per season, min 7 days before harvest for permethrin, 3 days for Fenitrol.
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If organophosphates are more dangerous to people, why is the usage looser than permethrin? For example, The instructions say it’s safe to spray up until the day before harvest on strawberries (2000 dilution rate). I gave my nectarine tree another hit with it tonight (recommended 1000 dilution).
That really is a question for someone in Japan who has knowledge of the regulatory system in Japan. In Japan (as in other countries) it may be just a matter of politics. If a farming lobby opposes further regulation of a pesticide it may not happen. Or permethrin was listed for pesticide use in a later period of time when testing, labeling, and actual use was more heavily regulated.
You can also do your own comparison. Check the LD50 and LC50 for both pesticides and see how they compare for animals that are mammals. Ideally, this would be the same mammal- rats, mice and rabbits are fairly commonly used in lab tests. In general, organophosphates are considered more toxic than say permethrin or related compounds.
Imidan and Lorsban are two organophosphates that are labeled for use on fruit trees in the US. Lorsban is only available to licensed applicators. They also have strict label requirements. Imidan for example can not be used in recreation areas like parks or playgrounds and has a 14 day re-entry period for Pick Your Own customers.
Several OP have been pulled from the US market by the EPA like Parathion and others like Lorsban are no longer registered for home use. https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/rmpp_6thed_ch5_organophosphates.pdf
The safety record for Fenitrothoin does not look great and I would be careful with the chemical even if the label for it’s use in your country is not restrictive.
I have noticed that chemicals that are restricted or pulled from the US market or severely limited by the EPA show up in other parts of the world without the restrictions, especially in poor countries. Lorsban (Chlorpyrifos) and Chlordane are two examples
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If you go to the link you supplied-
https://www.i-nouryoku.com/prod/search/nouyaku/detail/1/66
and click on the link “SDS” that takes you to the SDS (safety data sheet) for the pesticide. The SDS has LC50 data and it appears occupation exposure limits (OEL) are also included. I can’t read the sheets because I am not fluent in Japanese.
edit--------
for pure Permethrin 100% concentration
lethal dose 50% population (LD50)= 383 mg/kg rat oral
for pure Fenitrothion 95% concentration
lethal dose 50% population (LD50)= 20 mg/kg rat oral
So Fenitrothion is about 19 times more lethal than Permethrin when both the chemicals are in concentrated form. In reality, you’re buying solutions that have lower concentrations which have less risk when you handle it but I still would expect Fenithrothion to have a higher relative risk than Permethrin.
Thanks a lot guys.
It’s difficult for me to find someone local with knowledge of the regulatory system. I’m amazed it could be that corrupt where a dangerous pesticide is banned in one developed country and being handed out like candy in another. There’s a few things that are banned here that you can get in the states.
I don’t understand the logic behind the instructions either. Strawberries you can spray the day before harvest. Apples it has to be one month before. Small grapes three months before.
Iiuc, Sumithion is 50% Fenitrothion. The dilution rates for the above mentioned fruits are quite similar (1/1000,2000).
I don’t think it’s corruption. You are living in a society with a different cultural background and different concerns… so the rules are different. The rules are probably partly based on actual testing of the compounds, partly on how many problems society has had with the compounds in the past, and what society thinks is needed.
They do have a label with instructions, a safety data sheet and a question and answer section provided by the supplier so that’s good.
You really haven’t explained the background of your situation. I am guessing you are an ex-pat living in Japan and that makes finding information and interacting with people much more difficult. Can you read Japanese easily or is it a struggle? Can you follow technical Japanese in a document or is it impossible? You might contact the supplier listed on the SDS. They may have the SDS and label available in English especially if the company is an international supplier.
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