The British seem to be pretty confident they are the same apple and as per a discussion here awhile back RdR x 1700 and the KoP in Geneva have identical genetic markers meaning they are almost certainly genetically identical, and one scion came from England and the other came from France. There is another RdR in Geneva which is RdR x 82 and that may be the one you tasted, it is not the same as RdR x 1700 or KoP. See the discussion around here in this thread: Best tasting apples - #273 by scottfsmith.
It’s good to hear that pollination shouldn’t be a problem, Scott. I’m interested to hear that you’re trying those two russets and will keep an eye out for them in your future reports.
Wealthy is a helpful suggestion, Jesse. I’ll definitely keep that in mind for an early apple, which I haven’t had a plan for yet. (Matt mentioned Ginger Gold above.)
@MikeC: I appreciate your point about doing research beyond catalog descriptions. What resources have you found particularly useful? In addition to this forum, which has been extremely helpful, some of the things I’ve looked at are Beach’s Apples of New York (helpfully available on Google Books), Burford’s Apples of North America, and Jacobsen’s Apples of Uncommon Character, as well as the Orange Pippin site and Adam’s Apples. I’ve also used this RHS page that provides a list of some scab-resistant apples (and pears), which I found particularly interesting in that it includes a number of older varieties: Apple scab and pear scab / RHS Gardening.
With your concern about Baldwin freezing out, are you thinking of the notorious winter kill back in the day? While I am in zone 5b, it would be highly unusual for us to get cold that severe here.
@VSOP: Northern Spy was on my long list, kind of in the same category as Baldwin: classic New England apple, very good if you can get it right, but enough growing concerns (from what I understand) to push it down my personal list for now. Orange Pippin rates it as poor for disease resistance, with some susceptibility to CAR as well as FB, and I was also aware that it could be very slow to bear. (In fact, my dad planted a Northern Spy in our backyard when I was a kid, and I don’t think it ever bore fruit to speak of. In fairness to the tree, it was not an optimal site, and I don’t remember it being noticeably unhealthy, just no fruit for more than a decade.)
In general, my method was to start by trying to identify high-quality heirlooms with a decent reputation for growability (especially scab resistance) and bonus points for a NE pedigree. Some great apples (such as Cox and Spitzenberg) got knocked off my list for growability concerns, and others got knocked down it (such as Baldwin and Northern Spy). That being said, I realize that my short list includes a few things that can be tricky to grow (such as Ashmead’s and Mother) and others that I don’t know as much about as I might want to (such as Westfield and Gray Permain). And there are almost certainly others that have issues I’m not aware of yet…
As far as the question of how concerned I should be about fire blight in general, that’s something I’d like to get a better handle on, both for apples and pears. I believe that Alan, whose experience I definitely respect, has said that it’s never been a major problem for him in his part of NY, but that he’s been seeing more recently than in the past. For the moment, I’m looking at moderate FB susceptibility as more of a yellow-light than a red-light. If anyone has any further insight on FB in the Northeast, I’d definitely be happy to learn more.
@womblesd: Thank you for the additional information on Yates. It does sound like it’s probably a little too late for me if Scott is having trouble ripening it and its coming in for you in early November.
@maineorchard: That sounds like a sensible approach for a U-Pick. Just taking a quick look around at what people are growing, most of the small orchards around here seem to go pretty mainstream in terms of varieties, with a lot of the Mac family, and Gala and Fuji also being popular choices (less Honeycrisp than you might expect, actually). Paula Red looks to be popular for an early choice, and Mutsu also seems to have caught on. Some places do look to be getting more into the modern DR varieties, and a few have included a sprinkling of heirlooms (I noticed Roxbury Russet, Golden Russet, Winesap, Wealthy, and - this actually surprised me - a couple of places growing Westfield SNF. Looks like I’ll have to do a couple field trips in the fall!)
Just to clarify, though, I’m just planning a home orchard, not a commercial one. (Even so, I am certainly making things a lot more complicated than I could be…)
Thank you again, everyone.
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Jamie,
Re. Golden Russett apple, @scottfsmith posted about the different names that different nurseries use to call it. I personally will start calling American Golden Russett - Bullock, and English Golden Russet- Golden Russet to save myself sanity.
Somewhere you mentioned Scott Farm in Vermont. One member, @SMC_zone6 went there last year and recommended it. I’ll make a trip there this year. I’ve been to Red Apple Farm in Phillipston a couple of times and like it. Unfortunately, this past year, not many fruit buds survived the April freeze and the summer drought sped up ripening time. By the time we got there, the varieties we wanted were gone. There were not many to be picked from to start with.
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Great references. These are the references I use as well. I also like looking at older book references (as in Beach’s). I use one called “Cole’s Fruit Book” from 1849. I have found a few more online articles/sites off and on but pretty much I use all of yours. That was why I suggested doing more research. How the catalogs describe the apple ( or any fruit) always sounds great but they usually never tell you of the downsides to them. I only mentioned the Baldwin apple is because of that huge freeze way back when. Probably an odd event so Baldwin would be one to try out anyway.
Hi mamuang!
The Golden Russet distinction was pretty confusing to me, I admit. Am I right in recalling that EGR is the high-sugar apple that’s particularly favored for cider, synonymous with Golden Russet of New York? Your approach does seem helpful.
I do hope to get up to Scott Farm - I was going to say next year, but this year is already next year - I have some catching up to do. I think you’ve also mentioned the Tower Hill Botanical Garden - it sounds like they have a pretty remarkable collection of old varieties. Do you know if they are still distributing scion wood, by any chance? I seem to remember seeing something about that on the forum, but when I tried to follow the link it seemed to be dead.
There are a number of small orchards in our area. One that I’ve taken my daughter to is Park Hill Orchard in Easthampton, which has a very pretty view of Mt. Tom and does a thing where they have sculptures by local artists set up throughout the orchard. Another that I’d like to visit is Apex Orchard in Shelburne. It’s on a farm that was started by a Revolutionary War veteran, Abner Peck (A. Peck’s… Apex), and has been run by his family for seven generations. It’s supposed to be a beautiful spot, and the apples I’ve had from them have been very good.
By the way, my wife wanted me to ask you if there were any more of the more modern apples that you would particularly recommend for our climate, since you had suggested considering options along those lines, and I know that you try to do minimal spraying. She tends to favor somewhat milder apples, and I’ve tried to account for that in our selections (Black Oxford, Hubbardston, Kidd’s, and Mother seem to be a few that fall into the “comparatively mild but pleasantly distinctive” category, though I could be misinformed or misinterpreting what I’ve read). But then again, she also wants us to grow Bramley’s (nostalgia for time spent studying in England)… I appreciate any suggestions that you (or others) may have.
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If you would like descriptions on disease resistant apples, I found this page to be helpful:
http://shop.cumminsnursery.com/shop/apple-trees/disease-resistant
You can even narrow it down further by clicking at the top on the disease you are particularly concerned about.
And honestly, you live in pretty good apple territory (assuming you live in generic zone 6a/5b New England and not, say, zone 3 in Maine.)
I’d think if you stayed away from the apples with later ripening times (Cripps Pink and Red, for example) you should be okay in the vast majority of cases.
Also…don’t get wrapped too much around the axle, lol. I’m sure you’re not, but I did! Research is good, but if it gets to the point you’re spending hours and hours searching for the Holy Grail of apples and just getting more and more confused, time to just order and hope for the best.
Good luck to you!
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Jamie,
My apology to your lovely wife. I have not tasted many apples besides the common ones from supermarkets. I like sweet apples or at least, a balanced ones. I don’t like the ones that are more sour than sweet. I likes apples like fuji and Honey Crisp. I grow Wiiliam’s Pride and like it, too.
You need to Consider ripening time. If you want to grow Fuji, choose the early ripening varieties. Regular Fuji ripens late, not sure you could get full flavor ones in zone 5. Same as Gold Rush. You may not get GR to ripen in time on some years. GR also is CAR susceptible. HC ripens for me from mid Sept to early Oct. it has a yellowing leave issue. The leaves look ugly by late summer but it is only cosmetic. In our climate, you will get good tasting HC.
Taste is subjective so it is hard to go by someone else’s taste. However, it is helpful when taste and texture is described as sweet, sour, bland, bitter, crunch, soft, mushy, etc. At least, you have a basic idea to go by.
I just expand my apple varieties. I won’t be able to tell you until a few years from now.
I hope those with experience will help you out with their advice.
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Wrapped around the axle! That’s a good phrase, I hadn’t heard it before. And thank you for the encouragement, I really do appreciate it. The fact is, I enjoy the research aspect of things, and I figure it’s a good investment of time at this stage of the game, considering a few hours now could save me mistakes that might take years to recover from. That being said, I recognize that there are also a lot of things I will only learn by trying things out and seeing what works and what doesn’t, and that a lot of times what works or doesn’t won’t necessarily depend on me. So, you’re right, it’s getting to be time to get the orders in the mail, get the plants in the ground, and try not to screw them up too badly as I figure out my part of the whole deal…
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Mamuang,
It sounds like your tastes are quite similar to my wife’s, actually. Apart from the Bramley, that is. She says that her with were very amused when she tried to eat one uncooked, and she didn’t manage more than a slice or two. But she really liked them for baking. Two of her more recent favorites for eating have been Jonagold and Lady Alice. We’ve had William’s Pride from a nearby orchard and liked it pretty well, so that might be an option for an early apple as well. Though I’m kind of thinking more about pears for late summer at this point. We’ll see.
Getting a feel for the flavor terminology has been another part of the learning curve for me. I’m still not quite sure what “subacid” means… But a number of the apples my wife likes seem to get described as aromatic, so that’s been a key word I’ve been looking for.
Thanks again!
Jamie,
I assume subacid to mean a not very sour taste. It seems to me people seem to use the term almost in a negative connotation. Or maybe, I am wrong (not the first time, either 
).
@mrsg47 and other love Jonagold. I am working on getting the scionwood.
I think if you and your wife love pears, that’'ll be another delicious fruit that grows well in our area. If you want to know about pears, European or Asian, please start another thread. There are a lot of people here who have experience growing pears. I love pears myself.
I personally prefer plums to apples but it’s harder (more diseases) to grow here.
I was there in fall of 2015 and they were battling a pretty intense fireblight problem. They were taking some time off from shipping scion wood then, but might have started up again. Try giving a call.
I live 15 minutes from Tower Hill. I took my daughter often when she was younger. It had never dawn on me that it can be a good apple resource and source 
I even saw they took people on a tour of their heirloom apple orchard. Well, that was when I was younger and clueless 
I’ll give it a call.
Thanks for passing along that news - I’m sorry to hear that, and hope they’ve been able to get it under control, it’s a really historic collection. I guess that answers my question about how big of a problem FB can be in the Northeast (and not in a good way), though that does sound unusually severe.
The Botanical Garden looks like a really a cool place to have nearby, Mamuang, and to be able to take your daughter to, apples or no apples.
Jamie, I admire and have planted a few of your selections. A few observations, Hunt Russet a nice orderly grower hasn’t fruited yet, Black Oxford is also a shapely little tree but again I can’t speak to fruit quality. You mention English selections as having some interest as well, one that was historically recommended as worthy for all of England & Scotland is Wykken Pippen, another tidy tree with divine fruit. Crimson Crisp is an apple that I don’t have planted but wish I did, for an apple that ripens in late August early Sept. it is incredible. I have 8 Calville Blanc planted and don’t regret it, darn fine eating and superior cooker. We had some fireblight a few years ago and lost a couple Swiss Limbertwig and E Spitz. but the Calville in the same planting was untouched. E. Spitz is truly a great apple but not my favorite tree, lots of blind wood as well as being kind of sickly. I don’t think Fedco has “Old Pierre” on offer this year and it hasn’t fruited for us yet but I like the tree and the back story is pretty cool so something to look for in future catalogs. Pomme Gris is also a tidy tree but I can’t comment on fruit yet. Any way have fun with the research and happy planting.
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I did not realize there were so many variations to that one. It probably explains the differences. If I had my choice of which apple I wanted in my orchard I would definitely say ( of the two I saw and tasted) it would be the King of Pippins version. Of course I am no where near where I tasted those two so finding “that” tree would be sort of impossible as well. The search continues…
Thank you, Vinegaroon, that’s some very helpful information, particularly regarding tree growth. Good to hear good things about Black Oxford, Pomme Gris, and Hunt Russet in that regard, and I hope that you will soon be as happy with the fruit as you are with the trees!
Now that both you and Matt have mentioned Calville Blanc, I may have to add that to my list of things to think about down the line (along with Baldwin and Northern Spy, two other suggestions from this thread). I remember seeing the name Wykken Pippin before but not with much information attached, so your review is intriguing, and I see that Keeper’s Nursery in the UK credits it with some degree of scab resistance. I wonder if that squares with your experience? Unfortunately, I think Spitzenburg does fall on the list of great apples that would be hard for me to grow.
Thanks again!
Jamie, good to hear from you. Choosing what to plant can be such a confusing exercise. How much is hyperbole, how similar is my climate? Between Google Books and forums like these there is so much collective observation available, I’m not sure that makes it easier but it does make it more fun. There are two more on your list that I have some experience with and neglected to mention / recommend. I have 2 Orleans Reinette planted and they are very fine trees, I grafted one on B118 and bought the other on 111 they both look like they want to be big. Here in Salt Lake ( which historically was Jonathan country) as I mentioned we can get fireblight, and late in the season powdery mildew can be a challenge. So far O. R. has shown no susceptibility to either. I’m anxious to try the apples but they are unusual trees, very upright like a pear and nice big leaves, from what I’ve seen I wouldn’t hesitate to plant this one. The other is Grey Pearmain, here it may be out of it’s depth. It has been a tidy little survivor in the orchard but the one apple I harvested last year was bad enough I considered chopping all 3 saplings. I’d guess we get much more heat here than your situation so it may be a fine apple for you but if my next few samples are as insipid as the first it’ll have to go. The Wyken Pippen we have was purchased from Trees of Antiquity and while it is ( in my limited experience ) a fine tree and great apple it doesn’t really match the descriptions I’ve read for the apple but maybe this is climate related. Ours is a beautiful red apple. Of those on your list that I haven’t planted, I think Blue Pearmain is the one I’d most like to try, I like big heavy apples … Anyhow I hope your choices become obvious to you here soon so you can find the trees or scion wood you settle on. In closing, whatever the question, trees are the answer. I went back and read your intentions for a Belgian fence and would really encourage you to use Calville for a good chunk of it. It was historically cultivated this way and still seems to like it fine. In closing one more time, while there is so much good information about how to graft, I don’t think it gets stressed enough to protect those grafts from frost (that would be the voice of experience). Happy planting, Tom
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If you like bigguns, then you would love Blue Pearmain. Just one of those things eats like a meal.
Blue Pearmain
Ripe Oct. 8- 12, 2016
Blue Pearmain size (right) compared to Pixie Crunch (left):
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Matt, Your blue pearmain is beautiful!!
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Wish I could claim to have grown it. I actually bought them at Distillery Lane Ciderworks. Sorry if my post was misleading.