Indeed budding on persimmon is easy…I have 100% taking rate. Watch the video carefully and see how they cut and match scion bud with rootstocks.
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Well the twins I grew from seed have been grafted.
Kasandra on the larger one… Nakittas Gift on the smaller one.
Scion matched to rootstock diameter and whip/toung on both.
There are some buds below both grafts so chip bud could be done later if these dont take.
I will post progress hopefully.
TNHunter
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We have a 10 day full of 70 and 80s coming up and i have several more persimmon seedlings now with heavy bud swell and small leaves forming.
The one below is one of the larger seedlings out in my field. It is high chest high… has several branches.
At 1 ft up from the ground it is about finger diameter.
Most of my other seedlings… i will whip/toung or modified cleft graft. Size wise they are right for that.
On this one… think i could cut it off quite low (where thicker) and bark graft a couple of scions in.
Or i could cut it off higher and possibly cleft graft a couple scions in ?
I plan to graft Prok on this one.
Of course higher up the tree i could whip/toung or mod cleft to individual limbs there.
Any recommendations?
Thanks
TNHunter
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Do you have deer issues? I’m guessing yes? A tree that size, with no deer concerns, I like to whip/tongue about 30" high and just let it branch out.
Here’s an early golden grafted at about that height after two years of growth on the graft. I haven’t fussed with pruning. A persimmon will figure it out 
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30 inch is just above that limb that goes out to the right near the middle of the tree. It is close to 1/2 inch diameter there.
I dont have any persimmon scions that thick… but i may have 2… 1/4 inch scions that i could fit in a cleft graft there.
I could do a modified cleft there with the largest single scion i have. I have had very good luck with modified cleft on pears apples cherries and goumi this year … 100%takes.
I have not tried a regular cleft yet… but it seems pretty simple to me.
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Cut off the side branches and W&T at the height you want. Diameter looks good and it should grow well for you. Diameter doesn’t have to match perfectly although it can if you have wood the same size. Just ensure perfect alignment on one side and you will be golden.
Size difference can be really bad and it will be fine Wrap thinly and completely to seal up.
https://growingfruit.org/t/grafting-isnt-always-easy-to-big-for-whip-and-tongue-to-small-for-cleft-grafting-not-a-candidate-for-rind/45410/14?u=snowflake
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HOW TO MAKE YOUR SCION MATCH: Cut the scion for a cleft graft. Cut your tree. Lay the scion across the top where it stretches from side to side. Note location and make cut there. Now it’s a perfect cleft on both sides. I love cleft grafts. Much sturdier than bark grafts.
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I checked all my scionwood… and the largest was JT02. It was still smaller but closer to rootstock size. Did a whip/toung at about 36 inches and lined it up best i could on one side.
It has two nice buds.
I will post the results.
Thanks
TNHunter
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Looks like you have some good contact in there. You should be good.
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Great job, I hope to do it as skillfully.
Next week I’ll try to graft coffeecake and chocolate to my fuyu and hachiya trees.
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The biggest reason I don’t whip and tongue or cleft graft the end of the branch / whip when topworking persimmons has nothing to do with the grafts taking. On well established seedlings, your scion can easily push 6 ft. of growth. Also the leaves on newly topworked trees are massive. Between thunderstorms, temperature swings and fronts moving through, we get a fair bit of wind here, I have to spend a lot of time securing the new growth and/or pruning it back so that it doesn’t snap right off at the graft.
My method now, similar to what I do with mulberries, is to side graft partway up, leaving the rest of the trunk. It makes a nice stake. , The nurse leaves I keep help the scion to push too, I believe. I’ve observed scions at the top of stems just sitting there, while the rootstock has decided instead to put its energies into pushing buds down low. My method keeps the sap flowing past the graft until it’s made connection. Another nice thing is that you can also put as many scions on a rootstock as you care too. I often do 2 single bud (scion, not t or chip) grafts instead of a single scion with 2 buds, as I might do with apples. That way, I figure I have double the odds.
I probably have around to 90% take, though I was more like 25% my first couple of years.
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Last years topworked seedlings- taken mid August:
I just looked today, one of these trees went from 3’ tall and 1/4” caliper at the graft to 10’ tall and 5/8” at the graft. That tree, a JT-02, had a second stem slightly smaller (the 2nd graft) that DID snap off despite my efforts to lash it off. I was outside that night fortifying my stakes and Velcro ties for fear I’d lose much more
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I think your choices are many, temps are about right and a good time with buds breaking out! I would tend to do whip & tongue at a height matching scion diameter and a chip bud just below that as an insurance backup. Rootstock seems healthy so even if you fail you have plenty time to graft again. Another if you want to graft lower would bravado z graft where your size does not matter as much, but I fave the whip & Tongue as a stronger graft union than Z! Good luck Trev. I am just starting outdoor figs using Z grafts and bark grafts to top work a mature tree to earlier varieties.
Dennis
Kent, wa
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That is one nice graft! Great technique. You can be sure the graft will be successful and it’ll heal clean
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Appreciate all the tips folks and the encouraging comments.
I have 4 more seedling persimmons out in my field that i hope to get grafted this week. On most of them pretty sure i can do W/T and have scionwood that will match the diameter of the rootstock.
Then i have several trees 1.5 to 2.5" thick that i am going to cut off at around 4 ft and bark graft a few scions to.
I gave grafted so far kasandra nakittas gift and jt02… all hybrids.
I have some ws810, 100-46, prok, zima khurma, sweet tooie… and a couple varieties from portugal… rojo brilliante, coroa de rei…
If all these take and make it… it is going to be a persimmon wonderland around here.
Love it !!!
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I’ve had this problem repeatedly. You get 6’ of growth but then after a windy day it all ends up on the ground. Your solution is elegant. Is a “side graft” basically a bark graft on. the side rather than the end?
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@hobilus … wow those leaves on your grafts are huge. Must be happy.
I will definately have to protect the new growth from wind.
Last spring i grafted a mulberry to a stump cut off at 8" high… and it grew 8 shoots from 4 scions … over 6 foot. It had some really big leaves on it too. I had a cage around it that it grew to fit… and actually sent some branches outside the cage by season end. Being somewhat contained in that cattle panel cage worked nicely on it last year.
Here is what it looked like late summer.
Note… i had to cut that cattle panel cage off it in sections to get it off… and that pic is after cage removal.
I have all the smaller persimmon seedlings out in my field caged already… and i bet they will be ok with just the cage for support. Most of them I will be grafting at around 16-24 inches.
Below is what some of my smaller seedlings look like.
The taller ones i may have to use some 8 ft tpost to support that taller growth.
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It’s a legitimate concern. Even if the vigorous shoots wasn’t grafted at all, I’ve seen some break off due to high wind gust.
It’s really more like a cleft or veneer graft, depending how big the rootstock is. If I have a rootstock much over 1/2” diameter, I tend to graft to a smaller side shoot rather than bark or rind graft. Just my preference. I like the surgical precision of a couple of clean slice matching neatly. The bark graft seems a little more crude, though it definitely works. I do use them to top work apples, or anything really where I’m less concerned about making sure the “stars align”, though.
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I did a batch of mulberries a couple of weeks ago because rootstock was pushing in my basement where I had stored it. These were a pretty good match diameter-wise, so it winds up like a cleft with a nurse stem above it. I’ll go deep if I can, cutting across the rootstock so that sap passes across the union on its way up. With the right angle and depth of cut, you get good pressure from the stem to lock the graft together. Kinda like you get from the tongue on a whip and tongue if you do it right. The bigger the rootstock, the shallower the graft. 1/2” or 5/8” rootstock is more like a veneer graft. Not what I would call a bark graft, since I’m still making a slicing cut.
Pruning of the nurse stem above helps give exit points for sap so that the graft union doesn’t bleed. Not a concern on persimmon, but definitely on mulberry. I keep just a few leaves above, and pinch any new growth back so there’s no apical dominance to do with.
I guess it’s a little more complicated, but not much really. It solves a lot of problems I’ve encountered along the way, so I’ve tended to do if more and more. It’s also really ergonomic to do in the field compared to whip and tongue.
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