Is there anything special you do with seed grown trees? They take me 3+ years to get to the 1-2 year old trees I can buy from MO.
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I could really use some advice from the Persimmon Gurus here. I had a Barbra’s blush tree that I didn’t like the flavor of (I think I am not used to how the American persimmons taste), and this past Spring I cut down the tree below the union (so it’s pretty low, probably couple feet from the ground) and bark-grafted it with Cassandra. From looking at bark-grafting videos, I grafted three scion sticks around the perimeter of the stump. So all three grafts took. Then, a deer ate the tips of the new growth and from every possible spot on the remaining new growth sprouted numerous side shoots. I now have a dense persimmon forest growing on my stump – see pic#1. What should I do to end up with a semblance of a normal tree? Should I leave a single shoot on one of the grafts and remove everything else? The guy I got the scion sticks from (Cliff England, a wonderful guy by the way) suggested to instead “weave them for stronger union”. I did not understand what this mean and he didn’t respond to a follow-up question (and I am awkward to trouble him again, he’s been very patient with me already). The shoots seem to thick to weave a braid, I am afraid either they will break or I will dislodge the grafts. Moreover, one of the three grafts clearly dominates, leaving another graft rather sad (pic#2), while the third graft has leaves that are all curled up and kind of disfigured (pic#3). Cliff said it’s from insects, so I sprayed it with spinozad, and it helped two of the grafts but not this last graft. So I am tempted to leave the dominant graft but any advice would be greatly appreciated. Incidentally, the dominant graft has grown some humongous leafs, including this foot-long monster (pic#4). Has anyone seen this before, or am I nurturing a monster??
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Heat is the main key I think. Anything you can do to make it hot. I normally start them in cheap plastic cells inside trying to time planting them outside until after I’m done persimmon grafting (so that’s maybe around June 1 here… so not that early really). I plant them right away when the pink stem of the seedling barely is moving the dirt as the taproot will already be trying to come out of the bottom of a 4-5" cell. I stick the entire cell (scored so the tree can break them apart… and vole protection) in the ground to minimize disruption. Heat and full sun is a key. I grow them in rows with 2’ wide black landscape fabric (Dewitt that will last a very long time and hold some moisture) and use 2’ blue tree tubes (2’ is fine because I have a great pyrenees that loves to manage deer). I think the smaller seedlings don’t do as well in full sun here, and the tubes work better. I might be full of it, but I think the black fabric and no tube will cook them pretty fast when it’s 100F+. I think my soil is pretty good. I don’t fertilize them at all but water frequently when they are small. Once they get their root established, they will all of a sudden take off. Some seedlings might get 36" tall the first year but I think it depends on the seed source. I’m disappointed if I don’t get at least 24" at a minimum, but 30" is pretty common. Sometimes an occasional seedling will just flounder (and I chalk that up to a taproot problem). I can often graft the next spring if I want, but it just depends on how things are going for me, and if I have a late freeze. I usually graft the bigger diameter ones first. After one year, many seedlings will have the diameter of a MO seedling, and by the next year will have passed them up. We get very dry here, so I’m ok waiting a year to graft if I get a more vigorous tree with better roots in the long run from seed. Some seeds that I started in 2021 are 8’+ (with diameter more than I want for w&t) because I didn’t get them grafted yet.
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I grew these two from rich tooie seeds last year.
Planted them out in my field early spring and then grafted Kassandra on the larger one and Nakitta’s Gift to the smaller one.
They look like this now…
TNHunter
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That may be my biggest problem, followed by shade. I don’t get nearly the quantity of GDD that you do in the Plains, so my persimmons aren’t going to thrive in quite the same way.
I’m envious of your 24" in the first year! I’m lucky if I get 8".
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I imagine Cliff said to weave them to make them stronger against the wind possibly breaking off the grafts. You could stake and tie them as an alternative. The trunk looks like a good size, so I’m guessing you bark grafted the scions. Personally, I’d wait until the stump heals up in due time and then cut all but the dominant shoot. I had the same issues with leaf curling. It could be insects, over/under watering, or over/under fertilization. Here is a thread that talks some about it: What causes Persimmon leaf curl? - #9 by Jose-Albacete.
P.S. thank you for the Barbara Blush and Zima Khurma scions in the past. I have a few trees grafted from your scions. They are doing well, but I’m still waiting for fruit. I’m jealous of the quick growth you all get.
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Yes, I definitely get some good heat here. I have one spot where the persimmon get maybe two-thirds of a day of full sun in the hottest temps of the afternoon. They didn’t trail the full sun plantings by very much at all. I have some others that get their sun more in the morning. They didn’t grow nearly as fast… although I planted maybe 7 seeds per spot (to select the strongest growers ironically enough), so that might have been partially a competition issue. I also didn’t use the black fabric on those morning sun persimmon so maybe that’s partly a factor too.
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@AvidSlacker … i had some grafts this year that early on pushed lots of shoots. My rich tooie graft had 5 shoots growing from one scion… with multiple shoots coming out of one bud.
I removed the weaker shoots and selected the best one for central leader… left a couple others but tipped them so about half as long as central leader.
Provided support for central leader.
That works well.
Good luck.
TNHunter
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Thanks for the quick answer and a link! Good to hear you put those scions to good use. Your apple scions are also doing great on my tree. Had some bloom this year (but no apples yet, hopefully next year).
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Thank you, @TNHunter. From the pictures, it looks like the “couple others” that your kept refer to the original scion sticks you bark-grafted. So I am going to pick the central leader from the dominant graft, remove (most of) the rest of the shoots from it and, per @blueKYstream advice, retain the remaining two original grafts until the stump heals. Sounds like a plan – thanks guys!
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At this late stage, I would mostly leave it as is because the leaves you have are feeding the tree… and it’s late in the year. You can thin later. Weaving to hold things together is an interesting thought. That might make the bark grafts hold on a bit stronger.
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So the third time is apparently not the charm for this triple trunk rootstock I’ve been trying to graft to all season. After failing twice with Kaki and hybrids and deciding it must be KSDS, I tried three different Americans. Just like all the others, they appear to be pushing and then they just fail. I think this is just not going to take other grafts for some reason. This fall I’ll dig it out and put one of my persimmons still in containers in its place. Painful to lose a season after having lost the previous year when the Rosseyanka top died back from a nice 8 foot tree. Thankfully most of my other grafts are doing well.
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Oh no! I’ve had that happen before where I just kept grafting and regrafting until the whole rootstock dries up and died. Some would rather die than host a graft. That’s a sad loss since the roots are well established and would’ve probably grown nicely if it cooperated.
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Thanks, @snowflake, for the advice. Thinning later sounds like a safe alternative. So I am adjusting my plans accordingly – thanks again.
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What has worked for me with root suckers: Using a sharp spade, sever the main root by pushing the spade into the ground in a circle around the sucker roughly 6" from the central leader. Then give the now separated sucker a month or so to sprout its own roots. You’ll know that it is viable if the leaves stay green. Then after a month or two pot or transplant the sucker. Take the soil with the roots.
This works best if the root that you need to sever is small, as with the top and bottom suckers in the photo. That probably means favoring suckers that form far from the main trunk. I’ve had roughly 75% success with this method.
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FWIW, after maybe 50-60 grafts of Americans and JT02 to (a) an established Prok tree and (2) various DV seedlings:
- My bud grafts onto Prok never succeeded.
– My W&T grafts succeeded roughly half the time. Success/failure seems a function of rootstock quality and my own knife skills or lack. W&T is relatively demanding, especially in the field. Probably ~2/3 success with bench grafts on small potted seedling trees.
– My bark grafts onto Prok were nearly 80+% successful IF (!!!) the rootstock branch was in a dominant position. But such grafts were 0-20% successful if the rootstock branch was in a subordinate position. So for example, if a branch forked and I bark-grafted both forks, I would generally have near total success on the upper / larger fork but total failure on the lower / smaller fork.
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My bench grafts were nearly 100% successful on DV, IF I used a callus pipe with dormant rootstock. Out on the field, success was reduced to maybe 2/3. But 100% of my bark grafts on Kaki succeeded.
Even tiny rootstocks were successfully grafted using whip tongue in the callus pipe.
I was even successful with a completely hollow piece of scionwood. The outside was green but the pith was dead/gone. It has grown the most of all my grafts.
Grafts on lotus were far less successful. Some kakis simply did not take despite repeated attempts. DV on lotus did work. Based on this year, I won’t bother attempting kakis on lotus anymore.
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@hobilus I tried a couple of your side grafts with this year’s JT-02 growth. They didn’t want to grow this season, but they definitely seem to have taken. Hopefully, they survive the winter and grow!
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@jcguarneri — I was wondering about how much growth they have to produce this year — to survive the winter and grow again next year.
My Coroa De Rei is short on growth… it grew some got psyllid attack… I sprayed it a few times, it grew a bit more, then late July just sort of stopped growing.
I have been feeding it compost tea and micronutrient mix the past week. Hoping to make it better.
I did notice a bit of new growth a new shoot today.
My CDR…
It has grown the least of all my smaller rootstock grafts in my field.
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I think so long as it grows at all and stays alive until it goes dormant in the fall, you’re golden. I’ve had grafts only grow an inch or two and come through the winter just fine. The next year they grew at a more reasonable rate.
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