It will be interesting to see if Red Hackworth x Delicious holds true.
I had/have had two versions of Stayman growing within 50ā of my Winesap. Both Staymans are different than those Iāve tried at the local markets.
Some key differences.
The Winesap is more vigorous
The Stayman fruits sooner. The Winesap spits apples for a few years before going full bore.
The Winesap has a fireblight rating of 7.5 - 8. Stayman is around 5.5 - 6.
The Winesap is a more erect grower and limbs will droop and weep with age.
The Stayman has no central leader and will not grow one. I call it shelf limb growth. Less tree vigor. Older Staymans are quite droopy all around.
The Winesap has much more aroma.
The Winesap is far more potent when cooked or baked. It makes the Crimson crisp seem like weak sauce.
The older version of the Stayman produced much larger fruit than the Winesap. Completely different flavor. The new Stayman sport Iām growing is a more elongated apple and has Caville D Hiver vibes.
I feel very confident I have a Winesap, and yes, the pollen is not viable and/or compatible with my other trees but yet itās likely diploid.
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Where did you obtain this strain of Winesap?
This is not uncommon, because it is the common way a triploid variety comes about. Diploid trees have two copies in their genome for each gene - one from the mother and one from the father. When normal cells divide to form gametes - the cells for procreation, these two copies are divided randomly and two gametes result, each with one copy of the genome, one version for each gene of the entire apple genome.
Sometimes this mechanism doesnāt work properly. When this mechanism in the seed parent tree fails to divide the chromosomes in two equal halves, then the entire genome - both copies - can end up in a single gamete. That gamete can then still fuse with the gamete of the pollen parent, who contributes one single copy of the genome of the pollen parent. The embryo (Stayman) is then a triploid and has three copies for each gene, it has the entire genome (both copies) of the seed parent, Winesap in this case, and one half of the pollen parent.
Other triploid apples also have the entire genome of the seed parent in their genome, plus half of the genes of the pollen parent.
This process probably also fails sometimes in pollen formation, but the size of the pollen grains inhibits the full genome of the parent to fit in a pollen grain and remain viable at the same time, that is why triploids almost without exception have the full genome of the seed parent, and not the pollen parent.
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Thanks! Thatās the best explanation Iāve yet seen..
Hopefully your experience with Willis was a positive one. Many people claim they are just a storefront/name for TyTy.. I donāt know if they are or not, never dealt with them personally.
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Back in 2008, they were spot on. No errors. Iāve purchased several peach trees, apple trees, apricot, flowering cherries.
Iāve heard they are no longer producing all of their own products and errors are occurring.
Iāve never seen a Gravenstein in their catalog. This would be a supplier error, not a Willis error.
Many mail order outfits make mistakes frequently.
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I have never had issues with Willis Orchard. How they are conflated with TyTy confuses me.
I went to a county extension grafting class in 2015 and grafted Stayman from two different scion āsuppliersā. I went back in 2016 just for access to the scions, grafted another. All on M111 and of the first two trees, one fruited in 2019 and the other in 2020. The third tree also first fruited in 2020.
I went again in 2017 and someone had available scions of āOld Staymanā. It was also grafted onto M111 and only fruited for the first time last year. Not super impressed but could just be because of āfirst yearā.
Weāve through the years bought them from a few local grocery stores (most only offer the standard commercial varieties but on occasion one or two will have Stayman available here) as well as a few specialty āfruit standā type places. All have been consistent in taste and perfectly match my three trees. Except for ones from a single specialty store where the taste is slightly better and theyāre a bit redder. They indicated they purchase from Orrās Orchard in West Virginia. I looked on their website and they say they grow the sport Snapp Stayman. So last year a member here sent me a scion of that and hopefully it will make it. Deer apparently think itās limbs/leaves taste wonderful!
From trips into Western North Carolina weāve stopped at roadside fruit shops and have bought Winesap a few times and once āSpeckled Staymanā. The Winesaps were smallish and fairly green skinned, they were not all that great. The Speckled Staymans were interesting looking, but not one Iād be interested in growing if I could get a scion.
Iād definitely be interested in any Winesap sports which are better than the few Iāve sampled.. As well as any Stayman sports which are better. I started eating them and King David in the 1970ās and have been a big fan since.
Last year (Stayman):
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The tree that I tested and identified as Stayman has an interesting history. It was planted in 1976 propagated by root sucker from my wifeās grandfatherās tree which as planted around 1946. 1989, Hugo blew over the tree, and a root sucker emerged to replace the original tree. It was 2001 when the tree had a massive bumper crop and was the first year I paid attention to this tree. Itās located at my MILās old place. The apples had a certain astringency or pucker factor like a persimmon. The flesh was rather coarse, the apples large. These had some green on the bottom. The flavor was well balanced aside from the astringency. I believe then the apples were being harvested mid late Sept. and the apples would not ripen hanging on the tree. 2002 or 2003, I took some up to Vernonās place and both him and his father both declared immediately it was a Black Twig. Sometime around 2018, the tree was covered with black rot and some blight in the wood and I cut the tree down. I had allowed stump sucker to grow a few years before cutting it down. The apples are now fine grained and have a very refined disposition with some effervescence giving it a slight Caville D Hiver vibe. I donāt think they bake as well as the earlier tree that produces the coarse apples. The apples are now ripening between 8/25 and 9/10 which is early even for a Stayman.
Iām starting to wonder if tree trauma triggers sport mutations.
The Staymans that are store bought are not super coarse nor do they give the eater tongue pucker. Do yours have this effect if theyāre just slightly not ripe?
I tried a Black Twig at Horne Creek that was not quite ripe. No pucker. It was just somewhat tart and hadnāt developed the full spectrum of flavor.
I donāt have any fruit to try this year since the property was hit hard by drifting herbicide and nearly killed my Bartlett, Winesap, and Stayman trees. Iām going to collect some scions before selling the property later this year or 2027.
The people that started TyTy originally worked for Willis. They have nothing to do with each other besides that. Some new guy bought TyTy anyways. He made an account on here a few years back to try to tell us it would be better, but changed nothing. Itās still a ripoff.
Iāve bought a bunch of stuff from Willis. Some of it was great, some mis-labeled, and some trash. At the same time Iāve ordered from just about every mail order company. Most of them have disappointed me at least once or more. Only Bob Wells and JFE have 100% with me. Maybe EL.
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