American Persimmon Grafting Questions

Do you mean you’d graft higher up on smaller diameter rootstock wood?

1" to 1-1/4" in diameter is what I consider the ideal size for persimmon rootstock, so what you have is very close to what I’d consider ideal.

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My persimmon bark grafts are showing pointed tips of green, abt 1/16 to 1/8" long. Grafts are 14 days old.
Tomorrow forecast sunny 88…should i cover with alum foil?
Or will warmth be good for them?
Tips of scions coated.
Not much effort to cover them. I guess this is really a question when are they ready to fly on their own
Thanks!

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They sound off to a good start… I probably wouldnt put foil or anything if you used parafilm or white masking tape . if you used electrical or dark tape i would cover it with white or aluminum

Here is a video update of the grafting project. Feel free to comment here or on the video and give me notes. Thanks for all your help everybody!

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I have about 5, 8 ft persimmons with only one of them so far female that I can tell.

If I received some scions from a known female tree and graft to a male tree will I get fruit?

Current female tree.

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Yep

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I have a few questions to add to this thread on Grafting American Persimmons… I will be using American Persimmon for my root stock… but hope to graft on, American, Hybrids, and Asian before I am done.

I understand that you can graft all 3 onto Wild American Persimmon root stock D.Virginia.

First take a look at my proposed root stock and let me make sure these will be Ok for grafting next spring.

I have 30 acres of land, but only about 3 acres are cleared, the rest is in heavy timber.

My clearings (fields)… I simply bush hog/cut twice a year… normally in June and again in October.
This year I was a little late on my first cutting, it happed mid July.

Well now that I have some wild american root stock growing in a container I have gotten to where I can easily ID them out in my field. Yesterday I took a walk thru my 2.5 acres of field just checking for wild american persimmon shoots out there… and I found something like 50 of them.

Keep in mine these were bush hogged (cut off about 6 inches high mid July).

Below is what they looked like on Sept 24. All had re-grown 2.5 to 3 ft of growth in a little over two months.



The large majority of the little persimmon saplings I found were near the edge of the field close to the tree line… There they would only get part day sun… but I found a dozen or more on out in the field where they will get a good 8 hours of sunshine.

So I am thinking those dozen or so… wow I have some nice root stock already in place and growing.

I expect they all have a perhaps more established root system, since they have been trying to grow in that location for possibly years now… but have had the top mowed off a couple times each year, and then sprout back up again.

So my first question is would you agree that these would be ideal to graft to ?

Even at this size (2.5-3 ft tall) with a diameter of 1/4 to 5/16 inch (8-10 inches up from the ground) ?

Can I get Persimmon scion wood that would match up well enough to that diameter root stock for grafting next spring ? I am thinking whip/tounge graft (that is what I used on apples last spring) and they were about that size… and it worked nicely. 100% success.

So that is my first question… have another that I will post more details on below…(location specific).

Ok next question… i have two really nice persimmon seedlings growing up on the narrow end of my field (where our overhead electric service comes into our property). In this location the field/clearing was made specifically for the electric service (overhead lines, poles).

The strip of clearing is about 120 ft wide… but it runs east/west and it gets really good all day sun.

There the electric poles have two lines up top (electric service related) and one line a bit lower (Fiber for internet service) and that bottom wire is about 30 ft up from the ground.

Two of those persimmon seedlings are growing right under the electric service / fiber lines.

So I am wondering if there are any persimmon varieties that I can graft onto my D.Virginiana rootstock… that would be OK in that location (never get close to that 30 ft fiber line).

I found the info below on the OGW website…

image

They say they use D.Virginiana for all of their grafted persimmons.

They have Coffee Cake Asian Persimmon and this is part of the description they use.

image

they list the rootstock as D. Virginiana… and say size at maturity 10-12 ft.

They have Early Jiro Asian Persimmon… (and over AP’s and list details like this).

image

Grafted to American Persimmon root stock, and size at maturity 10-12 ft in height.

Can any of you confirm that these Asian persimmon varieties grafted on to D.Virginia… should top out around 12 ft ?

If so, that would be Ideal for my Under the Electric/Fiber line locations.

@Lucky_P @Barkslip @cousinfloyd @Hillbillyhort

You all seem to have experience with this… would appreciate any advice you can give.

Thanks

TNHunter

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It with takes a while for the grafted Asian persimmon tree to get to 12 feet tall but you can top it off at 10 or 12 feet anytime and it will send out lateral branching and make the tree short and wide.

Tony

@tonyOmahaz5 … thank you Tony for confirming that.

Question for all again…

IKKJ … i want to try… so that will be one of the two asian varieties that i graft in that location.

But what for the second asian variety ?.

Is there another asian that would be a good choice… perhaps good but different flavor… or just earlier or later ripening ?

Thanks

I think Izu nonastringent Asian persimmon is the earliest to ripen.

I envy you your persimmon situation. The rootstocks in the field sound ideal for grafting and you should be able to graft directly to them.

One Green World seems to have a common description that they use for all their kaki when describing care and growth habit. I wouldn’t put much stock in it. And size at maturity doesn’t necessarily mean final size. But 30 feet seems like plenty of room for kaki on virginiana. You might want to put your kaki there and American ones in the brush hogged field.

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@TNHunter
I have 2 ~ 20 year old “ Ruby “ persimmons that may be approaching 30 ft. But they are in a old composting area with very rich soil. These are my tallest of grafted trees.
Most Prok ,early golden , at ~ 20yrs are around 20ft.
2 of which I topped at 15ft and as tony said ,they got the hint , and are growing more sideways . A few other varieties may be taller , but never topped.and it took ~20yrs to get so tall.
So I believe topping would work for you under the power lines .
Those rootstocks in your field would be ideal size to graft to.
And as murky said , Kiaki , I understand is a smaller tree.
Mine are young so can’t say how big they will be , likely a bad winter will limit their size here. I am trialing some of the so called hardier ones like ,: Tam Kam , 20th century, giboshi , sheng,Pen,Tecumseh,sajo. I believe these would be worth a shot for you under power lines and you are a zone or so warmer than I.
I have many very old native persimmons that are above 30ft.
Many seedlings come up in orchard rows where I can not mow. I have grafted many of these , that’s what got me started growing persimmons years ago. They just come up ,already in the row !
Good luck

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In my experience of grafting D. Virginiana last couple of summers, I ran to some issues with compatibility with Kaki’s. The grafted D. Kakis would grow but eventually wilt later in the summer. In comparison, hybrids and D. Virginianas would do well. I’ve decided for myself to use hybrids as interstem going forward.
I’ve seen info that all D. Kakis are compatible with D. Virginiana. If that’s so, perhaps there were other factors with my failed grafts. It was a handful of grafts.

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There is a sudden death syndrome ,SDS. That can cause that. Grafting kaki to Virginiana,
Sometimes the graft fails because of it.sometimes not.
A thread on here somewhere about it

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Yes, you should be able to. You might have better luck finding specific width scions from someone on the forum rather than a nursery but it can’t hurt to ask.

I would recommend getting a v cut tool and checking out the “z graft” method linked on my beginner grafting guide. A simple cleft graft offset could be effective too.

You are on the right track looking for kaki under the power lines. I’d recommend topping the tree as was already suggested. More importantly, talk to someone at whatever company sprays or cuts those lines and make sure they don’t whack your trees. It happens often even when an agreement is made.

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Yes, it is possible that it was SDS.

Re-reading that thread, noticing that SDS can occur to hybrids as well.

@TNHunter The info above might be of interest to you since some of your field persimmons could be rootsuckers.

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I have the same situation and have put kaki on virginiana close to power line. Most of the kakis are slow growing and stay small. I plan to keep them topped to about 10 feet. Two I have noticed grow faster and taller. Tecumseh is making a huge wide and tall tree and Giombo is growing narrow and tall. Those two will get major pruning this winter.

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@SteadyStan — some of those seedlings I found are 40-50 yards from the tree line around my fields…

I have not found any larger mature persimmon trees in the tree line or even back in the woods a bit.

It seems impossible to me for them to be root suckers… unless persimmon root suckers can travel an extra long distance and then shoot up. I would think that would require a mature tree to send out root suckers like that… and I have found none.

I may just purchase a couple of Kaki trees to plant under the power line strip. Play it safe there and perhaps get some producing faster.

And stick with American and perhaps some Hybrid scion wood to graft onto the others that are way out in the field/clearing.

I have been reading here about American varieties and since I have so many seedlings out there to graft too… think I will try some WS-8-10, H63A, 100-46 and Prok.

I have not met a wild American persimmon I did not like - so I am sure I will be very pleased with any of those.

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Trev,
Many graft techniques will work with persimmon - first ones I ever did were just a simple whip/splice graft (no ‘tongue’). I’ve just been doing a simple bark graft for most of the last 20 years, with good success.
Don’t get in a hurry to do them - they need some heat to callus… so, they’re one of the last things I graft in spring. Aftercare is probably more important than technique - you’ll need to check them at least twice a week to keep rootstock shoots below the graft rubbed off. Persimmon is VERY persistent about trying to push its own shoots, and given half a chance, it’ll rapidly outgrow the scion.
Those well-established seedlings/root suckers will probably push some really vigorous growth… better plan on driving a stake or taping one to the trunk that you can tie the new growth off to so that wind or bird-perching won’t blow/knock the graft off.

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