What’s that supposed to mean?
It means that I don’t want to allocate space to this topic within a thread about Taishu. It’s a detour and a distraction. So I’ve started a new thread focused on the question whether male flowers produce fruit. Simple enough.
You know a lot about persimmons my problem is the zone is 6a so it may be more like 5b on many years. Some persimmons with kaki genetics are not that cold hardy.
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Let’s get you hooked up: fish, line, & sinker. I’m your go to man.
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I swear we just went over the fact that some persimmon trees have hermaphroditic flowers. Is that possibly the explanation here? Maybe the Rosseyanka offspring males fit that category?
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No, they just do this sometimes. It’s another nature’s mind-boggle to us all.
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Nice photos.
I wish I knew where in the U.S. 
Given the enthusiasm of people to answer … it is perhaps only in a research station is not distributed. It is possible that Japan gave the strain only for experimentation and research as it often does.
They wanted to send it to me this week. I asked for January.
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ARS-Grin does not appear to have Taishu unless it is under a pseudonym. I can find Taishu fruit for sale at a few stores in the U.S. There are no sources for scionwood or trees so far.
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I would love to see a taste report on Taishu. Specifically, what is its brix?
It’s supposed to be 15 times(?!) sweeter than other persimmons according to the link at the top of this thread.
You can find Taishu brix online. It is variously reported between 16 and 18.
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Not very sweet if these numbers are accurate. Much lower than any persimmon I grow.
I suspect that’s right. The variety was released in the 1990’s and it is widely grown in Japan, so there seems no obvious explanation other than restricted distribution. Maybe Japanese commercial interests want to keep the variety in Japan. But that’s just my speculation.
15 times has got to be wrong. Maybe hype, maybe a misunderstanding.
Taishu is 1/2 Fuyu, 1/4 Jiro, 1/8 Okogosho, 1/8 Hanagosho. I’d expect it to be similar to these other PCNAs, especially Fuyu. So taste-wise, I wouldn’t really expect it to be anything special. And it is not an early ripener. And it’s probably not any more cold hardy than it’s progenitors.
To me the attraction of Taishu is that it regularly produces male flowers, a trait that comes from the goshos. That makes it a good source of pollen for attempts to breed a non-astringent hybrid. To a rough approximation, it’s a flowering Fuyu/Jiro.
As I’ve noted elsewhere, JT-02 is already 1/2 Taishu. A backcross of JT-02 x Taishu should produce some NA offspring. Moreover this backcross would probably be achievable by an amateur grower in her backyard, though growing out the seedlings would require a very big yard and some time.
Alternatively, Taishu could be crossed with other hybrids. But since other hybrids have astringent parents and the NA trait is recessive, it would presumably require two generations to produce any NA offspring. So a much bigger yard and much more time. JT-02 is the easier path.
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Unfortunately, in my climate, PCNA persimmons don’t fully lose astringency every year. This year, Jiro did not lose astringency. We had a very cold spring and less heat units than usual, that might be at least partly be the reason. I’ve heard that this is also the case in parts of Europe which are further north. Even grocery store Jiro seems to sometimes have a slight astringency which I am sensitive to.
Sweetness levels are still higher than grocery store Jiro at 19-22 brix but less than PVNA or PCA varieties which can be upwards of 25 brix. As a result of the astringency, I eat Jiro slightly soft — not crunchy.
PVNA varieties also have a more interesting flavor - reminiscent of tropical Chico Sapote.
I wonder what the probability of generating a PVNA hybrid is, by back crossing to a PVNA variety. All my PVNA varieties produce male pollen – Nishimura Wase, Maru, Zenji Maru. All the other Gosho varieties are also easily obtained in the US.
@ramv – Yeah, I’ve seen your comments about persistent astringency in PCNAs in your area, noting that the same happens in other cool areas including parts of Japan. I suppose that ethanol would work to eliminate the residual. Have you tried it?
Personally, I prefer my IKKJ soft. The fruit seems sweeter and the flavor richer.
When you comment on PVNA flavor, are you assuming pollination? [I have a young Giboshi, and I’d prefer not to pollinate.]
When you dream about a PVNA hybrid, what are you trying to accomplish? Isn’t there a risk that a non-astringent PCNA x PVNA hybrid would lose those flavor nuances that you like? And if the hybrid is non-astringent (NA) will it still be pollination variant (PV)?
Anyway, the Japanese released such two varieties – Taiten (2007) and Taigetsu (2009) – that are both crosses of Kurokuma (PVNA) x Taishu (PCNA). The offspring are both PVA, implying that this 1st generation cross (a) did not eliminate astringency but (b) did reduce the production of ethanol by the seeds. Per se, those don’t seem ideal outcomes. Maybe a back-cross with Taishu could produce a PCNA but, as I asked, to what end? Is it obvious that we’d have PVNA flavor without the interaction of the seeds and the tannins?
Hi Joe,
Personally I am not that fond of PCNA persimmons. PCNA fruits have little going for them other than non astringency when crunchy. You give up a ton of flavor for that. Flavor wise, I haven’t found any PCNA fruit to be that much different from others. Maybe Taishu is different, but given the genetics, I am not that hopeful.
OTOH, PCA, PVNA or even PVA persimmons (like Rojo Brillante) are sweeter and have a more interesting flavor. Further, if you like crunchy fruit, many of them can be ethanol treated and they will be better than any PCNA fruit consumed crunchy.
Yes, I am assuming pollination. Yes, there are seeds but they are not objectionable once the fruits get to a certain size. And the flavor improves dramatically in varieties such as Nishimura Wase. Unless you find seeds objectionable, this may be a good way to go. My Nishimura Wase fruits are even larger than store bough Hachiya so seeds are not very obtrusive.
Of course, these can also be eaten soft without pollination and are quite good. Perhaps they will also lend themselves to ethanol treatment. I dont know.
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I am hoping for a PVNA type hybrid that combines the best of american persimmon flavor (rum raisin, butterscotch) and PVNA (cinnamon, chico sapote). Develop a high degree of sweetness early in the season so short season climates are not at a disadvantage. High cold hardiness would make it a universal winner.
As I understand, PVNA hybrids already exist so they are within the realm of possibility.
Yes, that is definitely possible. But PVNA hybrids are apparently real. So this must be possible.
I will be getting some gosho varieties at the end of the season. I already have many hybrids and many pollen producing kakis. Starting maybe 2024, I will hopefully be able to distribute seeds to members of this community. Hopefully something interesting will come out of it.
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Ram, you should try to grow the Hyakume (PVNA) persimmon, it is very good, sweet and can be eaten while crunchy. If you want to eat soft fruits, just wait until the fruits that are not pollinated gets soft. I prefer the hard crunchy persimmons only. I have other non-astringent asian persimmons which also tastes good (fuyu, jiro, large unknown variety).
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Hi Kaz,
This year my Jiro was pollinated for the first time. And the flavor was so good. Much sweeter than store bought Jiro. Brix was between 19-22. Store bought (unpollinated) was only 14 or so. I heard they prefer pollinated fruit in Japan.
I don’t know if our season is long enough for Hyakume. @scottfsmith said that he had trouble ripening it. Our seasons are shorter than his.
But I am growing Maru, Zenji Maru and will be adding some other PVNA varieties also.
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