I was thinking about Antonovka and M111 but I’m concerned on them getting too big. The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a smaller tree to spray and manage. Is is possible to keep them small by pruning? I’ve read a lot of conflicting information on this on the web and this forum… Like the DWN approach - does it work on a standard tree and in my area? Otherwise, I’m leaning toward B9. I read conflicting information on the Geneva rootstocks too. I should start a spreadsheet or something…
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Great! I’ve been collecting manure and mulch so it gets composted. I can try and incorporate that during planting. I’ve mulched my existing trees well and they put on quite a bit of growth this season despite a long dry period in Aug.
What about a dwarf interstock on B118 or Antonovka?
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No experience with interstocks here.
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Sounds do-able, but I am not experienced with it.
I’ve never created an interstock/interstem/interstim before but the possibilities are quite intriguing. In your case possibly a larger tree producing primary root that can handle the soil conditions. With a more dwarfing “inter” piece that likely wouldn’t have been able to. Resulting in a more precocious tree that remains smaller and more manageable while being able to deal with poor soil conditions. Seems somewhat like the best of all worlds… Is the downside only that there are 2 graft unions instead of 1 so chances of a graft failure are doubled? Hmm…
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Have you guys looked at the videos and blog posts at Skillcult.com ?
He grafted B9/M111 interstems as a project and did follow up reports for several years. The videos and blog posts are on this page.
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That’s what I was thinking too. Seems like there’s a lot of variables to it though and not much really known. I’m fortunate where I live it’s pretty protected so other than heavy fruit set the wind isn’t usually a factor.
Thanks for those links! I hadn’t seen those. I think I’m going to try some next spring on B118 and Antonovak with a B9 interstem. Maybe I could even use the B9 roots to plant a row of cordon trained trees somewhere. Hmmmm, good thing I have all winter to think about it.
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Avoid using M7 as it is not well suited to sandy soils I live in Wisconsin and have lots of family in northern Adams county and some near Wautoma in Waushara county too. The soil there is a very well drained sand. Yes people in the area do have apple trees. I see NO commercial orchards in this sandy area.
Whatever rootstock you use, you will need to water as needed. Sand does not hold water well. Since you are from that area you are familiar with all the center-pivot irrigation systems used to grow potatoes and snapbeans in the area. Same for apples. You will need to water.
Another concern is fertility. Being a sandy soil, you will need to add nitrogen each year or your apple trees will definitely be lacking in growth and leaf color. Because sand will not hold the nutrients long (sandy soils are low in organic matter) I would advise you fertilize 3 times a growing season but with very lite applications as it will quickly leach out. One application at leaf out in spring, again in June and again no later than July 15th. The vegetable growers in that area do the same thing (I spend a summer in college interning at the Hancock Research Station run by U of WI if you are familiar with that operation on Hwy 51. Helped in a potato research trial ).
You may also find some weird micronutrient deficiencies showing up from time to time. pH is an issue too as the soils must be limed. Average pH in the area is 5.2.
Another issue is the SHORT growing season as I know by Hancock they can get spring frosts up to early June. The growing season ends around late September some years as everything freezes out. Please choose early season apple varieties only and be sure they are cold hardy for zone 4.
I would go with Bud 9 if you want a cold hardy dwarf rootstock (must stake). Friends of mine use Bud 9 near Menomonie WI and do well with it (they got -42 this past winter during the polar vortex).
Antonovka, Ranetka and M. prunifolia will all be plenty cold hardy but may get too big for you on vigorous varieties. Unless you do a really good pruning and shaping regimen. Definitely do some branch bending early to get them into bearing mode as fast as possible if using a standard rootstock. I would also suggest vase pruning if using a standard rootstock as easier to control height.
In my home orchard, 4 of my apple trees are on sprout free rootstock (standard). I got the rootstock at work so the price was right as free. They are bearing nicely . Vase pruned. Initially I did a lot of branch bending to get them to bear earlier by tying the branches down. It seems to have worked out well.
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Good plan. I too am very interested in and may give this a try next spring. M111/B9 perhaps. Not for soil reasons, just for more dwarfing/precocious’ness but also free-standing. Have seen advice to graft the interstem to the rootstock very low and bury to above that point.
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Yeah the only “commercial” orchards I see are old ones that have been abandon… We have a pretty shallow water table too so I think that helps some, but I agree I think they’re going to need water. I irrigate my veggie garden all summer long. My neighbor has about a dozen dwarf trees and they’re doing well, but he hauled in black soil for that area and they are staked. So far I’ve been using a couple 5 gal buckets with a small hole drilled in the bottom once a week when needed. Just set it up next to the tree and fill it.
I learned the N lesson last year. I didn’t apply anything but some 10-10-10 in the spring for the few I do have. Besides being attached by the deer the first year they didn’t grow much. This year I put down a ring of 10-10-10 and then side dressed with a little Urea twice throughout the year. They put on a lot of growth compared to last year.
I bought some complete control release fertilizer I was going to try for next season, and I got some horse manure that has been composting all summer to put down under some mulch. I’m hoping that will help with the micros. You’re right on with the pH and nutrients. Here’s a soil test I did in 2017.
| Sample ID | County | Twp | pH | OM | N1 lb | P-O ppm | P-B1 ppm | K ppm | Ca ppm | Mg ppm | S1 lb | Zn ppm | Salt1 | Na ppm | CEC meq |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 3 | Waupaca | Dayton | 5.3 | 0.6 | 3 | 19 | 38 | 41 | 160 | 29 | 6 | 0.33 | 0.01 | 17 | 2.72 |
Any recommendations on varieties? That was going to be another post. I’ve only lived here 3 years, but we had a frost in Aug a couple years ago.
I work in ag so I’m familiar with the Hancock research station. I went on their farm plot tour they did a couple years ago (I’m not sure if they do it every year or not). The variety of research they do there is interesting.
I’ll do a little more research on pruning styles too. Maybe a standard wouldn’t be bad if I can keep in manageable.
I would try Zestar as it ripens early and is cold hardy (developed by University of Minnesota). I think McIntosh and Cortland are about as late ripening an apple as you can grow in that area.
NW Greening is still very popular in Minnesota and western Wisconsin. I grow it as one of my favorite pie apples. Super cold hardy. But only good if you want a cooking apple.
Some of the Canadian varieties like Prairie Magic might be worth a try. Others would be Hazen (originated in Hazen, ND), Woodarz (originated in North Dakota), ect. I guess it depends also on availability if you going to purchase the trees or graft your own. State Fair is an older MN variety that grew well when I lived in Minnesota and ripens in late August so that should do good too.
Yellow Transparent does great up there too but it is a summer apple. Wonderful the first day and mush 3 days later. Good though for apple sauce if you want to can or freeze up a lot of sauce.
Mighty tough to beat McIntosh and Cortland however as both are dual purpose (cooking and fresh use) and both should ripen for you. Stay away from Redcort and Royalcort as they ripen a little later than plain original Cortland. Ditto for McIntosh as LindaMac and RubyMac also ripen later than plain McIntosh.
If you do decide to go with some full size trees M111, B118, etc. you may want to consider the solaxe pruning system. Solaxe was developed as a pruning system that could be used to convert an existing full size tree into a smaller, more manageable, more fruitful tree. But you can train a full size tree to the system at planting as well.
Something I forgot to mention is that central WI sands tend to be pretty low in ph. My folks’ place tested in the upper 4’s and low 5’s. Lime was extremely important. You can fertilize all you want, but if the ph isn’t adjusted to at least 6 (I’d prefer low 6’s) you’ll be throwing a lot of money away on fertilizer.
Thanks! Looks like the U of M has some good information on their website too for their varieties. I’m planning on doing some grafting next spring and will try to find scions of some of those others.
Could you post some pictures of your vase pruned trees if you have time? That’d be really helpful to see.
This is really interesting, thanks for sharing. I had no idea there were this many different growing systems for apples. I’m learning all kinds of things.
Good point. I’m planning on taking a few soil samples this fall to see where everything is at again. I’m b hoping to take advantage of the low pH and grow some blueberries next year too.
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Hello,
I am no expert but I do have 20 trees most about 12 years old now.
My soil is sand a clay with a heavy clay subsoil.
All my trees are on mm111 as suggested by the local fruit expert at crop production services.
The only problem is burr knots which really isn’t a problem.
I keep them pruned low enough to avoid ladders using a delayed open center system
My trees did take a long time to bear.
I am in zone 6b
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Good idea. My folks’ had 100 acres and there were a couple low spots. Wild blueberries grew well there. Most years the fruit didn’t amount to much due to a lack of moisture, but I’m sure a person could easily grow some nice blueberries with supplemental watering.