This victimization of spray from neighbors can be part of the conversation, but I doubt it actually is often an issue and none of the pesticides besides Imidan that are suggested on this forum have even been implicated as a health hazard in this context. Automobile exhaust has.
It is one thing to live downwind from a farm, another to be near a neighbor with a few fruit trees. Sometimes it becomes a power trip to try to impose one’s belief system on someone else. Thoughtful neighbors should be able to reach a compromise- spray when the air is still and let the neighbor know so they can close their windows. If the tiny amount of drift that lands on the non-spraying neighbors lawn is enough to threaten the health of their children, chalk the results up to evolution.
The point of laws is to settle these kinds of arguments, but reasonable people can go a bit further by way of common courtesy. Whenever I’m on a spray route and see a nearby neighbor with an open window, I knock on their door and let them know what I’m doing.
It, Strawberry Verte fig, is as sweet but it doesn’t have better flavor than many other fruits I grow. And even thou I’m in zone 8a figs don’t produce outdoors here. They’ve frozen back every yr and so far none has produced decent fruit on regrowth. And they need spraying for spider mites in the greenhouse.
There aren’t many free lunches in the fruit business.
Thereby wasting much of the nutritional content of the fruit and virtually all flavenoids of fruit with most color in the skin. More actual evidence of the benefit than harm of what you are discarding, IMO.
I’ll call your bluff on that one. There may or may not be actual limitations like you’re referring to in areas with extremely concentrated production of very specialized crops, but I’d wager a friendly bet you can’t find a single such example where such a limitation has been enforced in any normal kind of location (either urban, suburban, or the 99% of rural locations that aren’t the focal point of extremely concentrated production of specialty crops), especially outside of the PRC.
Fruitnut, you’ll have to look back at what you said at the time, but even if you wouldn’t go so far in your praises any more, and no matter how inconsistent they’ve been outdoors in your location, my point was simply that figs are a great fruit, but they’re often given very little weight in calculations of fruit growing “success”, mainly just because they don’t lend themselves to being picked under-ripe and shipped across the country (or world) and sitting on a supermarket shelf for multiple days, criteria that may mean very little to a lot of fruit growers.
True, but part of my point was that it’s true whether you’re using pesticides or not. There are lots of challenges to growing fruit with or without pesticides, and even growing in simple ways (outdoors…) and without pesticides there’s a rich assortment of great fruits that can be enjoyed in abundance even in high pest and disease pressure regions.
As a purely legal matter you are wrong on this point. There are numerous tort and nuisance claims you could bring against a landowner behaving the way these individuals are purported to have behaved. You cannot use your property in a way to unreasonably interfere with other property owners use of their land.
Ironically pesticide use and its effects on organic farmers and others is a very hot topic in litigation at the moment and there are cases going forward on those claims all across the country.
As far as out of control pests, I would have to dig around a little bit but I would be surprised if there are zero cases on point. It could also be something of a case of first impression given that the strong movement to and economic incentive for no spray produce is a fairly new development.
I love the piedmont area (here in Virginia and North Carolina). My goal one day is to retire somewhere close to or in the Appalachians. For now I can just drive up for the weekend.
it is a tough call to me.
the reason for my practice is because i have such a wide variety of fruits/vegies where could get more flavonoids and other antioxidants, weight for weight, than apples.
Both use of and lack of use of pesticide can get you into trouble. We all know about cityman’s experience with his neighbor spraying weed killer, and there are probably thousands of cases of pesticides causing all sorts of legal cases every year. Lack of use can also cause problems and get you in trouble. In particular in regions of the country where there is a a lot of commercial fruit production you can get intro trouble for having apple or other trees you are not spraying. Here for example is one Washington county’s spray requirements: http://www.co.chelan.wa.us/horticultural-pest-and-disease-board/pages/backyard-fruit-trees-frequently-asked-questions?parent=Frequently%20Asked%20Questions In nearly all of the US you are not in any legal trouble for not spraying apples but if you are near a commercial orchard you well may get some complaints. I had a neighbor with a plum tree he was not spraying and I think it helped me get my own curc population extra fast. The ornamental plums and crabs also harbor pests, I have seen curcs in my ornamental plum and cherry tree.
There was a farmer I was just hearing from the other day. He said he had grown his fruit organically for years and got the certification. His neighbor sprayed and all his fruit got the pesticide drift. Now he can’t sell his fruit as organic anymore and he has lost his certification as an organic farm. He is really bummed out, but he can’t prove it, so he apparently has no recourse. He may lose his farm.
There are a lot of cases of pesticide drift out there. Monsanto sues farmers when their corn pollinates the corn of someone who is trying to grow organic corn because they say that the organic farmer “stole” their patented seeds.
I think that cousin floyd’s point about growing the fruit that are easier to grow where you live even if you don’t want to grow organically can be more profitable. We have huge cancer rates in this country and a lot of people who have already developed cancer are trying to eat organically to get that out of their system and let their body fight back. Apples can certainly be grown organically in some parts of the country but other fruits might be easier in other regions.
I am on some lists like one in California where they grow mostly subtropical fruits with thick skins because they consider apples and pears much more trouble that the obscure fruits they can grow without any pesticides. I stopped reading the list because I know I can’t grow that stuff here and I got a little bummed out about not being able to, so I focused on what I could grow.
John S
PDX OR
This is what discovery is for in litigation, but the cost to put the case together would likely be too high. That is one of the major faults of our legal system. Still, you never know. Losing your certification is the kind of thing I would fight about.
This is a case where someone has to lose. The conventional grower could be forced to stop using their sprays and that might put them out of business. However, it is the conventional grower that is violating the space of the organic grower. If I was king, whoever started their operation first would be the one given priority, but civil law doesn’t work that way. People often resent the law because it isn’t “fair”, but even laws written with the best intentions can’t always be fair. Don’t get me started on laws written by congressmen-women who receive campaign financing and even future high paying jobs from the people who have the laws written to their benefit.
I agree, John. I think eventually “sustainability” will be inevitable, either by choice or circumstance. Then folks will be spending most of their effort growing better adapted fruits and veg (at least on a commercial scale). In the coastal South, it might be citrus, figs, persimmons, pomegranates, jujubes, etc that grow best “no-spray” (that was my experience in SE TX). Here in the Midwest, it might be pawpaws, persimmons, aronia, elderberries, sour cherries, chestnuts, hazelnuts. But there is a pretty wide fruit palette that I’m having preliminary success with on a homestead scale. I think the commercial and home scale is an important distinction. There is a reason why things are grown on massive commercial scales in certain regions. I THINK that the smaller the scale, the broader the plant palette. Also, the larger the scale (and less-suited the crop) the more labor- and input-intensive (and expensive) the crop is to produce.
I think you mis-read where I was coming from. I wasn’t referring to any legal limitations ( there might be but I am not aware of any).
I was responding to Jujubemuberry who said that merely being pesticide free is justification enough for being ground zero for pest production .
Richard had opined that, in some instances, those who refuse to spray create a repository of pests which then spread to adjoining growers who sustain damage and that " they are a source of pests with no legal, environmental, or philosophical justification – other than profit"
to which Jujubemulberry replied with “their produce and land are pesticide-free, those are their legal, environmental, and philosophical justifications.”
I think, and I might be wrong, but some of the “non-sprayers” seem to be trying to stake out a high moral ground. I don’t think that that view is justified or necessarily true.
My response to Jujubemulberry, was just intended to make the point that one DOES NOT have an inherent right to
(1) introduce non-native plants into an environment and
(2) when those non-native plants can’t fend for themselves and
(3) thereby become a prime new food source tor pests who
(4) then are able to multiply and run amok
(5) damaging others
AND… then to claim that
I don’t hold the belief that their food and land being “pesticide free” is sufficient legal, environmental, philosophical or ( (Ughh!) moral justification." Not when they grow non-native or vulrenable crops.
As is most often the case, for important important questions… the answer is " YES, but" and “NO but”. and "Awwh! you gotta be kiddin me’ "
We could have a very entertaining discussion Alan. Most of my friends and law school classmates work in DC and many of them have clerked (2 of my good friends clerked for justices on the Supreme Court). For many reasons I chose not to work in DC.
There have been a number of interesting developments in trespass law over time that have created some peculiar inconsistencies. To keep it short (this is a fruit forum after all) if you can see the object trespassing it is more likely to be dealt with strictly (i.e, It passes the boundary line it is a trespass), but invisible objects or tiny particulates trespassing on your property are more likely to be treated in a different, more lenient manner. In short this was done to subsidize industry.
I’m saying don’t believe everything you’re told. He could have had an issue that organic won’t handle and thought he could get away with an unapproved material.
I can’t believe every small organic producers fruit is tested very often. If you can show me that they are tested often I’ll shut up. Around here it’s purely based on what the grower himself claims.
