Looks like a promising first try. I wonder how that fabric compares to the stuff in the link I posted. It seems like if the basic approach is sound some enterprising person could create slightly different designs for different purposes.
The ideal weave would be tight enough to consistently block the targeted pest but otherwise as loose as possible to allow maximum airflow, sunlight, etc.
Obviously this would be a significantly more expensive approach to take, but then people build greenhouses so is this really more extreme than that? You would need to have an approach that would allow you to open it up for pollinators.
This may seem silly but I’ve always wondered about the following: Ignoring the economics, let’s say I have a dwarf Bing cherry tree in the great lakes or mid-atlantic region. Normally, cracking, rot, etc… would be so bad that it is not worth growing. If I had a 5’ diameter weather proof fan hooked up to solar batteries and blowing fairly hard all summer (without damaging the leaves or knocking off the fruit), would this help with disease issues caused by humidity?
Scott if I’m not mistaken cherries also crack due to water intake thru the skin of the fruit. Some treatments designed to reduce cracking are aimed at reducing water intake thru the skin. A day of mist and drizzle can cause cracking.
I’m going by what I’ve read in Good Fruit Grower not first hand experience.
Oops yes I’ve read the same articles. I get my cracking when its dry and then I get a big rain so its directly correlated with a sudden change in soil wetness but thats not the cause and effect.
Yes, but cracking has even been a problem for cherries in the humid regions under tunnels- the excess water delivered by tree roots extending outside the tunnels is enough to cause cracking, apparently.
After a dry spell, rain or irrigation can cause lots of fruits to split. I didn’t deny that. Just said the water could be taken up directly thru the fruits skin. Where this causes the biggest economic losses that I’m aware of is on cherries in WA. Their usual damaging rain is a long period of light rain not the heavy rain more likely back East. It takes a decent rain to affect via the roots. A mist can go straight thru the skin.
And you are correct- which is why I started my sentence with the word yes. I didn’t intend to contradict you, but to add to the understanding of causes for fruit splitting- especially in context to the fan idea we were discussing.
Here in the northeast I think a lot about cherries cracking. They are a profitable nursery tree as far as growing quickly and transplanting without skipping a beat, but the combined need of netting from birds and the fact that they crack every other year makes me reluctant to recommend them here. Sweet cherries are a beloved fruit and some varieties ripen before almost anything else.
I grow apples without pesticides, and I have been relentlessly attacked on this site for admitting so.
I do live both North and West, so I am doubly blessed.
I am going to try to say something inoffensive.
I bag with ziplocs and cut the whole bottom off. I also use footies soaked in Surround. They both work great. THe ziplocs cost $1 at the dollar store. Make sure they are sandwich sized and ziploc, not fold over. They also save my apples from squirrels, my main pest.
We get tons of good apples. Some have parts that have bites or other problems, but not much.
Apples are naturally from dry summer areas like mine. Fruit is easier here, vegetables are easier back east and south with all your heat, day and night.
The idea of balanced and diverse is what Scott said: Include plants that harbor insects that eat your pests. I think that gradually building this up over time works best. My wife and her mother both liked the garden much more when I planted flowers. I didn’t tell them that they were the flowers that attracted my defending army: lacewings, minute pirate bugs, carrot family plants that bring parasitoid wasps, etc.
John S
PDX OR
" They also save my apples from squirrels, my main pest."
John, you are triple blessed Squirrels here are not that considerate. They took off with my apples in bags. That definitely does not deter squirrels in my area one bit.
I appreciate these discussions as a no-pesticide orchardist. I’m definitely NOT no-spray - I fall into Scott’s “naturopathic” category but I try to use as many tools as possible - including variety selection (though I still toy around with plenty of non-disease-resistant varieties), beneficial micro-organisms (regularly spraying 7-14 days worm- and compost-teas, EM or IMO), mycorrhyza innoculation, diverse planting strategies for beneficials, mineral accumulation, chop and drop mulch, soil mineral balancing, etc. Its too soon to tell how effective my approach will be in either the short or long-term as my orchard is only 2 years old, but I learn things from both sides and appreciate that there’s a broad spectrum - as with most of the rest of life it’s not black and white!
Lets all remember that “Holistic” orcharding (if you want to use that term) is very much in its infancy and will take many decades to mature (at least in the East, Midwest and South) and possibly much longer as there is virtually no funding or high level research taking place. Even the breeding of disease-resistant apples is relatively new (not to mention pest-resistant breeding, which as far as I know is not taking place on any significant level at all). I know there are lots of people experimenting (mostly on a small-scale) in many areas of the country. Probably only a fraction of them are sharing their experiences on internet forums, but its very valuable discourse to those of us that are experimenting with it, even if we are in very different areas we can all learn from each other. And experimentation is key to pioneering any new endeavor!
I do think, as this is a heated issue much like politics in this country, that we try to respect each others’ paradigms. Yes, we all base our actions on our modes of thought and belief. I think most folks that use insecticides and synthetics are still trying to use them as little as possible and in a way that minimizes collateral damage. I think all of us need to be open to learning from the other side. After all, we are all fruit-lovers with the same goal in mind regardless of our approach.
it will always be a heated issue because farmers who are obliged to use conventional pesticides are under threat. Those who use ‘organic’ or ‘alternatives/naturopathic’ have been reeling in big bucks, and per the site below, a staggering 11% growth over one year, and now a $43billion industry . That is a serious trend for conventional farmers who may be slated to lose their livelihood in just a few years if that trend continues.
Every gain of the non-conventionals is a loss for the conventionals.
below is a list of fruits supposedly compiled from USDA data, telling which fruits/produce(the “dirty-dozen”) should be wary of, and those that are much safer to eat(“clean-fifteen” even if grown conventionally).
as expectedly, the former is dominated by conventional temperate fruit trees, while the latter is dominated by tropical or sub-tropicals. The typically imported fruits are considered safer than those grown in usa, so if i were a conventional fruit grower in usa, i’d be sore too.
thee was a time when ddt was a boon(and it truly was—at the time), until a bio-syndrome aftermath in wildlife and increased risk of breast cancer in girls were attributed to it.
it is all hindsight vision, and if you were a farmer who once made a good living on kale and carrots treated with ddt, there’s nothing more hurtful than being told your produce is possibly toxic. It is as if you committed a crime, and the crime could only be stopped by your loss of livelihood.
developing countries would probably still benefit from ddt(especially malaria-stricken ones), when weighing pros against cons. While the population/economic booms in many countries(usa included) couldn’t possibly have occurred in the absence of conventional pesticides. Could almost predict that conventional farmers in developing countries will soon have the same sentiments once their middle class/higher class populations increase and start shifting away from their more affordable produce.
It may be a heated issue but one’s man’s definition of being attacked is another’s definition of a thoughtful if heated discussion. The only time I get irritated by folks expressing their satisfaction with producing fruit organically is when they suggest that it can be accomplished as easily in the humid regions as in the west- that the mountain they’ve heroically climbed is just as steep as mine.
Of course, faith based and sweeping assertions about relative health benefits of organic produce or organic growing can be mildly annoying (but they are everywhere, so what can one do?) when you’d like this forum to be primarily composed of real information that is helpful to all growers in every part of the country. Many a grower in the humid region has been set back from the satisfaction of good fruit crops with reasonable labor input by believing overly optimistic suggestions about the ease of growing fruit organically- or create their own definition of it when they wrap fruit with plastic in a manner that hasn’t even been tested for residue of chemicals in the plastic.
I can tell you that the majority of my customers come to me with the intention of growing organic fruit, but when faced with the much higher labor and expense involved, opt for a low spray synthetic approach instead. However, those that are satisfied with the results they get from an organic program make me at least as happy. I don’t need any more spray business,and am pleased with any kind of fruit growing success. The less poison the better.
If any of what I’ve written seems like an attack, I assure you that is not my intention.
Will organic produce ever be anything but small fraction of overall produce production?
I’m sincerely happy that people who wish to pay $5 per pound for organic apples can do so.
But most people can’t do that, or at least not on anything approaching a regular basis. The market for organically grown produce is limited by the price.
Now if organic produce starts approaching the price of conventional produce, there will be a lot to worry about. But I don’t see that happening in the near term on most crops.
@alan , I’ve always taken your input as balanced and appreciate your wealth of experience.
I also agree that there is a tendency for some to overgeneralize their success beyond their regions and all agriculture is local, especially when working with nature. I also think there is sometimes naive or overly optimistic expectations about organic which can be particularly challenging in humid regions (for popular temperate crops like pomes and stone fruit).
I had excellent success growing 100% no-spray in SE TX (but mostly citrus, figs, persimmons, pomegranates, blackberries and a few stone fruit, no pomes) and great success in N CO with a more management-intensive organic approach with apples, tart cherries, plums and berries. I’m new to the Midwest and think I’ll likely end up having most long-term success with the native(ish) crops like hybrid hazelnuts, chestnuts, pecans, persimmons, pawpaws, aronia, elderberry, etc (and that seems to be more of the focus of the larger permaculture farms I know of in the region), but I’m still experimenting with lots of apples, some pears, plums, peaches and tart cherries. Luckily, I’m not commercial and I don’t need perfect-looking fruit.
I’m happy to share my successes and failures (once I start getting an appreciable amount of fruit and/or pests).
I think trade from one climate to another is key. People in Eastern Oregon and Eastern Washington can grow great peaches, nectarines, and apricots. Trying to grow an organic orchard with those here in Nw oregon or Washington would be a complete crapshoot and a risky way to gamble. We have very early springs-February! and very wet ones. A disaster for those fruits. Kind of like going to Las Vegas to win your retirement. Good luck.
Some fruits are definitely easier to grow organically in some places than others. A lot of the heirloom varieties were only popular in one area for that reason. Warren Marnhart, in “Apples for the 21st Century” wrote about which varieties did well in different areas. Organic apples are $2.50 a pound here.
Thanks for everyone generally being respectful of others this time. I had to quit this forum earlier for awhile but I like how people are being considerate of others opinions.
John S
PDX OR
Squirrels here are not that considerate. They took off with my apples in bags. That definitely does not deter squirrels in my area one bit.