Biochar

Don’t forget your tax dollar pays for their buildings, mowing their grass, etc. and so much of the time its research that just spends our money senselessly. They don’t see the money so it is meaningless. Thanks Drew, now I’m tired, with a headache and PO’d. :angry:

Well, I guess we are closing in on an answer…No one on the forum has any hands on experience with Biochar and fruit trees except clarkinks (so far…).

clarkinks,

Can you tell me about what kind of soils you have and how you applied it to your trees? Did you make it all yourself or did you try any commercial product? If you made it all yourself, what kind of biomass did your use? Any particular kind of wood chips? What did you charge it with? Did your control get the same charging material but without the biochar? How did you apply it and in what quantities? Did you do this at planting time or was this a container only operation?

Anything more you can add would be helpful…

I believe that comes from tuition fees and endowments. At least that’s how it works out here.

It’s probably more the case that you don’t see the research so the expenditure seems senseless to you. My own research in University settings was always funded by industry grants. In one venue, the folks down the hall were getting large taxpayer funded grants from the National Science Foundation to study Alzheimer’s and using the funding to purchase high-voltage electron microscopes and supercomputers. Thanks to them, we now know what’s going on at the cell level.

Well I did refer to analytic software used in commercial science and engineering. These are not database operations. As an example, go have a look at SAS.

We could answer your question by pooling our resources. We are physically distributed about the U.S. Each of us has access to different commercial Biochar products and several of us have the means to make it. We could obtain our samples, send them off to an Ag Lab for full analysis of nutrient efficacy and bulk properties, then post the results here. How many readers of this thread would like to participate?

I would disagree with you there. All analytical software is based on a database structure. it is the easiest way to make such software. All medical software is database software. Diagnostic, analytical etc. Mostly for the ease of calling commands up. No actual database is needed. Most good database software allows for the creation of stand alone programs. Excellent software.

SAS is database software, but it is really good. This is worth the money. No local programmer could make this. It’s one of the most sophisticated relational databases I ever saw.
The SAS language is a computer programming language used for statistical analysis, originated by a project at the North Carolina State University.[1]
It can read in data from common spreadsheets and databases and output
the results of statistical analyses in tables, graphs, and as RTF, HTML and PDF documents. The SAS language runs under compilers that can be used on Microsoft Windows, Linux, and various other UNIX and mainframe computer

That description defines what database software is. What’s great about these relational databases is you can vary the amount of inputs from various databases to determine your output. As this software does really well. the key to good relational database software is how well the modules work, and how many are available. SAS has over 200 available modules, impressive! Using a relational database allows you to basically use the same program to do numerous tasks, this software does just that, and does it very well You can only do this with relational database software, this program is a great example of what can be achieved.

I’m not looking for a lab analysis of the content. I could do that myself. I’m looking for folks with hands-on experience like clarkinks to answer the kinds of questions I asked him. There is plenty of information out there on what Biochar is and its properties. There are plenty of companies out there selling biochar mixes and making claims and there are others eschewing it as well. I was looking for real end users with actual hands on experiences regarding fruit tree application…

As an aside, the discussion about analysis software and databases really gives me a chuckle. Sounds like dinosaurs fighting over memories of the past… :smile:

???

Michael Stonebraker thought so too - until he encountered scientific computing.

The older I get, the more I feel like one! :smiley:

Ricahrd,

From my understanding, nutrient content is not the point. Nutrient holding capabilities is the point. You appear to be a smart guy and I’m beginning to think that you are intentionally missing my point. Simply google it and you will find a host of information. There is an interesting thread on the QDM forum where some folks with a sound soil science background are discussing it. There are links to lots of good information sources. Unlike some, I’m quick to admit my limits. Engineering and computer science are my strength and the biological sciences are hobby focused. It would take me months to dig back into chemistry and microbiology to participate credibly in the soil science aspect of the discussion.

This is a fruit growing forum. I’m simply asking folks on the forum if they have used it an a fruit tree application, how they have used it, and what their hands-on experience is with it. I’m trying to vet it enough to decide if it is worth my time and effort to experiment with and if so, figure out were to start based on the experiences of others.

Each year, I start a few hundred fruit and nut trees in root pruning containers under lights in my basement and eventually take them to my pine farm and plant them. Most are part of a wildlife management plan but some are for personal use. I also plant some agricultural crops primarily for wildlife (beans, corn, radish, cereal, turnips, clover, etc.). I started doing traditional tillage with my clay soils and found I was doing more harm than good. I’m moved to minimizing tillage with a focus on building organic matter.

I have found there are lots of issues planting container grown trees in heavy clay soil, mostly related to water infiltration related, but I’ve solved most of them. I enjoy the learning aspects of delving into these areas outside my core competency.

Hopefully clarkinks or others with hands-on experience will return to the thread with their experiences.

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There is a lot of hype surrounding Biochar. There are advocates touting it as a carbon sequestration technique to save the planet. When it comes to that big picture stuff, who knows…That isn’t my focus. So, if you visit this link: 2012 Biochar try to filter though all the junk. Scroll down to the presentation and then look for the VT study slide. While find all the other stuff interesting, VT soils are going to be similar to mine and I’m comfortable with the VT folks. Some of the other stuff in the slide package looks a bit more like testimonials not controlled research but I’m sure that isn’t the case with the VT study. I have not been able to find a paper on that study but they may not have published anything yet. If anyone finds the full study, let me know…

Yes one of the great relational database system developers. He is very famous for his databases.
His new streaming database redefine how databases work.

I wrote a a term paper on this topic in college 6 or 7 years ago for a plant nutrition class. If anyone wants to read it I’d be happy to share, just send me a messge. It’s 20 pages long, so I’m not going to post it here. Some of the info may be a bit out of date now, but I thought it was pretty interesting at the time. It focused on biochar/Terra preta in the Amazon.

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Ampersand,

I’ve given up on this thread but I’ll try to start another biochar thread later and see if it stays at least somewhat on track. I’d love to read your paper and sent you a PM.

I apologize for the late reply though as many of you know I work from sun up to sundown every day accept the one or two I take off ( if I have a chance). I’m very picky what I use for woodchips, the chips I use are typically 30-50 ft tall trees that are preferably hardwood and trunk shredded as well as branch. I like tall trees because I believe the trees nutrients were pulled from a deeper mineral rich zone beyond the top 5 feet of dirt worn out due to modern agricultural practices. The biochar I make as mentioned by cramming a barrel full of wood chips and putting a lid and bolting the ring on it. The barrel is placed inside a brush pile I’m burning anyway which causes the contents of the barrel to burn in the absense of oxygen. My clay soil is rich in minerals but those minerals are locked up in an unusable form until the addition of humus aka compost, biochar etc. it’s a simple matter of positive vs negatively charged soil particles. Humus allows minerals not used in the soil to be used and at the same time increases moisture. Biochar in my soil seems to have a similar effect but the change is very long term. Granted we know the minerals in the wood chips I use are high but I don’t feel it would matter even if it was corn cobs because it changes soil structure. I also like to use maple wood chips to top dress the ground around my trees because they are high in sugar content. No one agrees with my methods all the time but anyone who has seen my farm knows the methods I use overall work very effectively. A prime example is tomatoes suffering from blossom end rot say to me the soil is deficient in calcium so I add oak leaves as mulch, bone meal, and azomite. Similarly thick clay soil that can’t breathe needs fluffed up by something such as cow manure, perlite, biochar etc for structure alone not even accounting for other benefits. Water penetrates loose soil better, earth worms move around easier, etc. if you see lots of elderberries growing in an area in the wild the water table is close or lambs quarter growing in large amounts implies the soil is rich etc. the soil will tell you what’s going on. Not all of those things I’ve seen biochar do convince me it’s what I want to use everywhere but I am sure it changes soil structure.

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I also would mention on wood chips we have a centralized pickup area where we can pick and chose what we want. The ones delivered to my house I get what they have. All wood chips are free waste products here.

Yeah, I can see how biochar might work great at making more oxygen available in excessively clay soils. Most organic amendments break down too quickly often pulling out N while they do and the stability of biochar would seem to be a huge plus.

Clarkinks,

Thanks for the information. I’ve got a few more questions. Once you made your biochar, what do you use to charge it? While I’m sure there is some nutrient value left in the biochar after burning, that will vary with the biomass source and process. I too am looking at it as a longer term way to store nutrients and sustain soil microbes. I’m thinking of it as essentially empty when it comes from the fire. I’m heard of folks using compost, urine, chicken litter, etc. to charge it before it is applied. I was wondering if you do something like that.

Second, how do you apply it to fruit trees? Do you use it as an amendment at planting time?

I’m finding that amending clay at planting time can be a two edged sword for containerized trees. Water infiltrates the potting mix in the container and any amended soil much faster than the native clay. It is possible to create a “pond” and drown a tree. I think I’ve worked out a techniques that works pretty well planting trees in heavy clay from root pruning containers to account for this.

How much do you apply when you use it?

Thanks!

alan,

It is that stability that I’m looking for. I’m finding that building OM is a very slow process with my clay soils. If you till OM into the soil, you introduce oxygen which increases the microbial consumption of the OM. It is possible to lose more OM than you gain. Frequent tillage with clay tends to eat OM pretty fast. If I don’t till with clay, I often get a crusting that can be problematic.

By the way, this is all in the context of agriculture, not fruit trees. I’m thinking that biochar might be a fit because it could be incorporated once and then tillage stopped. The problem is the scale it would take do this for agriculture applications.

That is what sparked my interest for fruit trees. The application area for planted trees is small compared to ag. If I try it and get limited or no benefits with fruit trees, then I know not to waste the time and money for ag. Since my ag is part of a wildlife management plan on a pine farm, not a profitable part of the business, I can’t make a profitability business case for it. Instead, I need to convince myself that it will improve nutrient cycling and I’ll be able to lower my input costs over time. So, fruit tree applications seem to be a manageable sized project to dip my toe in the water.

I can probably build a TLUD kiln from 55 gal drums for less than $30. I can get wood chips for free. The rest is labor but biochar production would be pretty small with this method. Probably enough for fruit tree amendment but not near the quantity I would need for ag.

There is another possible advantage I can think of for biochar over most other organic amendments in clay soil- its’ stability prevents microorganisms from stealing oxygen while breaking the carbon bonds for energy- the bonds being so well locked. Such activity also creates carbon dioxide which becomes phytotoxic in he soil.

Only pure humus also offers that kind of stability as a texture altering amendment in the realm of organic materials as far as I know. I don’t know how much oxygen is taken out of soil during such decomposition processes, but in soils with deficient O to begin with it may be of importance. .

@Richard

Google. “HUGELKULTUR” .

Might just be the answer to your clay soil problem.

Mike