Ebony King is tough as nails here. Its imho an awesome berry if you like the taste of wild ones… sweet with a kick. I really like this plant and its berries.
Brazos is super early ripening in the right climates…probably yours. I am just getting going with these as i had the wrong plants sent by Willis Orchard. Bob Wells sells the correct plants.
Prime Ark 45 floricane crop should fit your desire as well. Isons.
Prime Ark Horizon isnt super thorny but it is thorny. It ripens on the fcane crop the same time as Ouachita and a few days later than 45. Its fcane crop is incredibly productive.
Nelson isnt worth growing imho.
Darrow isnt worth growing either… i do for novelty.
Choctaw is probably what you really want… It fruits in late May and finishes in mid june. its incredibly hard to find and is a cross of Darrow, Brazos and Rosborough. I got mine from a guy in Oklahoma thats been growing it for 30 yrs. TyTy lists it but it is a seedling that grows small skinny fruits… nothing like the named variety. All of their listings are lies on the thorned ones. They must make a fortune growing out seeds.
My illini should fruit this year and i will know if i have double rosette in the next months. I did figure out how to propagate it… and have about 10 more planted.
Most all thorny ones are gone from the nursery trade… and you wont find many folks other than me that even talk about them…
When U of Ark came out with thornless varieties they recommended skipping Choctaw, Cherokee, Cheyenne, Comanche and Shawnee… which was fantastic marketing. Kiowa has been the only one to survive that culling.
U of Ark had a couple of thorny ones that they didnt know what to do with and Stark and Gurneys sell them as Black Gem and Black Magic. I think these will be gone from the market soon. Black Magic is a cross of Prime Jim and Arapaho… and Black Gem is a cross of Black Magic and an unnamed variety. Both should be very early fruiting on the fcane crop… nobody really talks about these as far as i can tell.
Echoing what some of @krismoriah said I think (especially moving to your new place with extra space) you can just out-produce both of these issues.
Have a zero maintenance patch of ebony kings that are too gnarly for the birds and by the house have a big row of prime Ark horizons that the birds can get a few of
And if they get double blossoms then that’ll just mean less berries fall onto the ground because you and the birds are sick of eating them
Black magic is delicious and fruits from june to frost with very little care. No need to let them get soft either, they taste like grapefruit when underripe.
Yes im growing Black Magic and Black Gem… before they get removed from the trade. I read some reports where people cut them down and removed them because they didnt know they had thorns. I never grew Prime Jim which is their parent and grandparent but it was said to be sweet with a twang which i like… Jim is also a parent of PA45 which is becoming hard to find also… i figure it will be gone soon also.
PA45 is insanely productive when the laterals are trained laterally on the fcane crop. Im not a fan of the pcane crop on most of these.
is it just me or is that an insane number of berries per square inch?
is that just the variety, or are you doing special pruning and fertilizing to produce that many on all your varieties?
edit: I see you mention training the laterals horizontally - is that the same kind of technique that the guy from Petals from the Past uses on his Kiowa?
it must have been Black Magic i was thinking about with the people removing them bc of thorns…
If you are into cheesy acting and used car salesman pitches… here is a video about Black Gem
If you watch enough videos of the primocane fruiting varieties… the spotlight is almost always on the primocane crop… i posted a few weeks ago a video from LSU where they tell you how to prune and tip…and if you notice the floricane crop is near the bottom of the plant.
So to get a very nice crop of primocane berries you need to tip at 2 feet or less then there will be all kinds of laterals that form berries on the tips at around 5 feet if you tip alot of those laterals early… After all is said and done you remove the tips of those canes after fruiting which leaves you with canes that are short and compact which in turn gives you a floricane crop that is low to the ground and then while they are fruiting the primocanes emerge the next year and you start the process again.
By doing all of this you will not get a massive floricane crop like the pic above… and most of these floricane crops are very early June on the pcane cultivars. They almost have to be all early fruiting in order to allow the energy needed to form canes for the primocane crop as well.
So to get that kind of fcane crop you need to not prune anything at all which will get your pcane fruits at around 8 or 10 feet in the air…unless you train them laterally like primocane supression method. Or basically just wrap or lay them laterally along the top wire.
This is not shown in any of the videos or wording about these plants that i have seen… as the focus is on the pcane crop. So this kind of fcane crop is possible by not tipping at all…of anything… if you grow them straight up you will have fruits at 10 or 12 feet which isnt ideal… but the crop will be small.
So this year after trial and error and alot of figuring things out i think i will just grow all of my pcane cultivars this way as i want june bearing instead of late summer/fall bearing plants. I may even cut the tips off that form flowers to give more energy to the main canes… as an experiment. i have not seen this done yet and havent done it myself.
Training the laterals horizontally basically happens naturally if you dont tip. you see it alot in wild blackberries. There is a pic of a black raspberry that i posted somewhere on here that shows what happens when the laterals are horizontal.
So growing a pcane cultivar only for its fcane fruit is kind of like having a convertible but never taking the top down i guess. I have seen alot of posts on social medias where alot of folks just like cutting them to the ground each year because its so confusing and only growing them for the pcane crop.
thanks for all the info
I remember you saying that you’ve learned to tip your PAF’s early and keep the main canes only a few feet off the ground - is that pretty much the opposite then of how you treat your PA45?
My goal the first year or two is to first figure out which berry plants actually survive the summer here, and then also which ones I like the taste of. After that I can figure out all the pruning tricks specific to each variety I end up keeping… maybe several years down the line
That’s a great plan. No wrong way to prune. It depends on your goals. You can figure out what works for you later. Hopefully more studies will be done to give more info to make a proper decision.
Many myths and anecdotal evidence about these two crop brambles.
Here are my unpruned Caddo plants. There are 4 plants on about 30 feet of trellis which is made from 7-foot posts with nylon string strands every 12-16 inches or so. I wind the primocanes back into the trellis during the season and 7-9 laterals shoot out from each primocane. At the end of the season I wind those laterals back into the trellis creating this messy wall of canes.
In one season, the primocanes get 10-15 feet long and the laterals grow 8-10 feet long. That means I have 80-100 linear feet of cane for each plant, which is 10+ linear feet of cane for each foot of trellis. Once these are growing as floricanes this season and all the new primocanes are coming up and sending out laterals it is madness.
I’m sure the crowding of canes is leading to lower production per linear foot, so I may try toping the primocanes at the top string this year, but that probably just means there will be fewer but even longer laterals. I should probably also remove all floricanes as soon as they are done fruiting, instead of waiting until later in the season.
This area only gets about half a day of sun and all these canes start shading each other. I still got a great crop last year but I wonder if reducing to just 2 plants on this trellis would yield the same or even bigger crops.
I’m also curious what the numbers are on total production from unpruned canes vs. aggressively toped and pruned canes.
Berry quality and size should be considered in analyzing data. To me it’s like thinning stone fruit. A plant can only produce so much sugar. Do you want that sugar in 300 fruit or 100 fruit? The 100 are going to be bigger and sweeter. The question should be about producing the most high quality fruit.
I myself follow conventional wisdom on length of cane and laterals. I find it does produce higher quality berries. YMMV.
So you are saying to top the primocanes and then tip the laterals? I think I may try that on half of them this year and try to compare based on production, plus ease of management. Part of my problem with Caddo is it is so vigorous. Ponca is much easier to manage.
I’ve probably not got the energy for it, but I imagine managing each of the four plants differently in this location would give me some good answers over time. With such vigorous vegetative growth you get a lot of cane length and leaves to collect the energy and create sugars, so maybe the ultimate calculus would be berries per leaf? I believe that is often used as guidance for thinning decisions in other fruit.
Yes that matters too. With thinning stone fruit you decrease only the fruit not the leaves. A very good point.
Through just observation though long canes seem to wilt on me or end in weak growth. The longer the weaker.
I cut canes at 5-7 feet and laterals 12 to 24 inches. I don’t measure I just start cutting! Keeps them more upright too.
Some state to cut canes at 4 feet and laterals at six inches. I prefer to let them grow more than that.
Since we are on the subject- i will pass along some info that i have learned…some thru trial and error and alot by reading the success and failings of others… this is by no means how to grow or anything of that nature…just some things to ponder.
Maximum amount of fruit for processing, or to sell at market- do not prune or tip anything space plants further for the most growth and the most total cane length.
Backyard manageable maximum amount of fruit- tip at 3 or 4 feet and then tip those laterals at 2-3 feet to keep fruit at eye level or so and within the boundaries of the row. this forums a hedge of sorts and maximizes the spacing of 3-5 foot per plant.
Backyard connoisseur - 1 to 2 canes per crown and not tipped but tied to top wire and grown laterally like Dr. Powell does in a way. let that cane and laterals grow on their own then prune them while dormant… this allows larger sized canes that hold more sugars and nutrients as well as hydration… as well as thicker laterals that will support more weight. Prune low knee height and below laterals as you see them during the season. This crown becomes like a little fruit tree instead of brambles. This will give you the highest quality fruit and maximize the potential of the crown for quality. Less is more.
Primocane cultivars- if you want the maximum primocane crop tip at 2 feet or so and then laterals will form and tip those at about 3 feet… by the end of the growth season the fruit set will be at eye level give or take… those tips are then spent…and pruning them while dormant will leave you with a half of a plant that fruits the next year on floricanes at about knee height. If you want an early ripening floricane crop cultivar these cultivars are some of the earliest ripening due to the nature of their breeding they need to be spent of berries to give a good primocane crop the following year. If you want a great floricane crop instead of a primocane crop then do not tip the plants at all… until they are at about 6 or 7 feet or not at all if you want to train them laterally. this will give you a primocane crop at about 8 feet or so if you desire in the fall… or you can just remove the fruiting tips when you see them form and focus on the canes for floricane crop. To do the opposite and only desire primocane crop…cut to ground after each season…you will not have a floricane crop.
Fertilizing- if you do or want to- during flower set. 2 handfuls of fert per crown. This is during the time of the plants most need…forming berries while forming primocane growth at the same time.
Irrigation- if you want large berries for market or to get likes from pictures then irrigate during the process of berry formation and ripening. If you want maximum quality of berries for taste then do not irrigate…and hope that you do not get alot of rainfall during this process…
Woodchips- too much and too deep can hold in too much moisture leading to issues as noted above on irrigation. If you find your berries to be bland or lacking flavor and you think you have done everything right… it could be too much moisture in your mulch. Wise to pull it back to the edge of the row before primocane emergence if you think that could be an issue. Woodchips or compost etc is best put down during leaf fall… which is also a natural amendment. It has all fall and winter to break down and keep root systems from freeze…which can lead to better root growth during fall as well.
Spent cane removal- the social media folks want these removed as soon as the berries are gone… which has you pruning these out mid summer. That makes things easier and tidier and prettier… However this leaves open wounds during peak insect and other issue causing things. This also has you throwing away free leaves and free nutrients from the canes. Removing these spent canes in late winter…there are no bugs around and whatever bugs made homes in the canes can be removed now. Canes are totally spent and all nutrients are back in the crown and the leaf litter is full of nutrients. No wounds to heal really and no callus to be formed.
If you made it this far…its mostly the same as growing a little fruit tree if you want the highest quality fruit. And Dr Powells method as well as the method of growing laterally along the top or top and mid wires is essentially the same as espalier.
We have been growing Apache thornless blackberries for over 10 years. We have gotten a nice yield of berries every year from our 13 crowns in a 30 foot row.
Last year, the top two feet of the canes froze and died, which made the patch look perty ragged. We still got plenty of berries but not a great crop. I am always amazed at the variation between plants. A few will have big, sweet berries. A few will have standard berries. And a few will have small berries and not many on the vine. I am now in the process of selecting “shoots” or suckers from the three best producing plants and upgrading the patch. I have also removed the 4 lowest producing plants.
This year, 2024, it’s too early to see for sure, but I think the the -12 degreeF killed some of the vines to the ground. Mid-Missouri zone 6b.
Robbins eat some of my berries, but I’ve haven’t really noticed it hurt my harvest too badly. Honey bees almost seem eat more of my TC than birds; possibly it’s just more noticeable because they never finish the berry.
Last year increased my bird suspicions too though.
Wasp-type insects such as Yellow Jackets are often cited as eating ripe fruit, I have not seen Honeybees lingering on ripe fruit. The birds here never finish eating the berry; one peckmark is the usual. If the berry is knocked to the ground, they do not follow it.
can you guys help me identify one, or potentially two varieties I have here?
The unknown one has long inter-node spacing, smooth dark purple canes, and the leaves are still just barely waking up even though everything else has already exploded back to life weeks ago
At first I thought it was triple crown, but recently I realized it doesn’t match the one to the left of it which was marked as Triple Crown… and that one actually looks just like the Sweetie Pies (so THAT might also be mis-labeled)!
so I don’t know if I just totally mixed up my original order last year or what, but any help would be appreciated!
Thank you for this magnum opus and thank you to @Drew51 too. I’ve saved both your sets of comments here for reference - I suspect I’ll be referring to them a lot over the next few years.
Really appreciate both of you taking the time to put your learnings in writing.
