I have been thinking about pin cherries prunus penslyvania my spelling may be off . Anyway I wonder if anyone has tried to cross these with sour cherries for a northern cherry .
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I meant sharing breeding stock, like seeds and cuttings, but maybe extending to newly created genetic material, especially for collaborations and such. I doubt I’ll patent anything myself, just due to feasibility if nothing else. Testing apple varieties is long and involved, even after the long process of getting varieties worthy of further assessment, so truly assessing the market value of a variety seems like a real project. We’ll see though. Berries might be a lot easier to test, faster to fruit, etc… Apples have a lot of disease issues. I’m more interested in a revival of something like the messy chaotic reproduction from seed that created the original American apple diversity, just maybe in a modern more informed version. Good luck!
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Actually I was being a smart ass, the trouble to patent something I’m not sure I would do anyway. I would hate though for nurseries to get it and sell it and in a sense rip me off. That certainly can happen if the new cultivar is a clear winner.
I agree going all the way to marketing would be an exhaustive project. Plus talking to those who have done it, you can’t make much money off of one cultivar, you need a lot more. Zaiger took 20 years to make his business worthwhile. Although now DWN produces 10 million trees a year, almost all of them Zaiger stuff, he no doubt now is a millionaire many times over.
Here is my thoughts (at this time) is to take a new variety (talking apples here )and market it the same way as any other no longer/never patented one. In other words many nurseries around here make a ton off selling honey crisp apple trees to home gardeners . They are making money on reproducing a variety every one wants and not on royalties . That is not to say that the original patent holder didn’t make a lot on the original patent but they also had a lot invested in it before a tree was ever sold.
The other way would be to sell the rights or partner with some company/nursery that deals in developing new varieties.
I am working on a multi flavored apple.
It tastes differently to each person who eats it and it tastes just like that person wants it at the time he /she eats it.
This will be a clear winner.
Just working out the kinks. It suffers from constantly changing tastes. I can’t get consistency.
Mike
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Many times when I read a description of an apple and then read the reviews from those that tasted it I get the impression that you might be behind the times on an apple like that !
Drew
I had a chance to listen to a plant breeder from NC State discuss the steps and costs involved in bringing a new patented peach variety to market. The first step was to insure the material was free from virus and other disease. The lab fee for that step was $1000. If the material was not clean and required remediation, the fee for clean up was another $1500. A lot of money out of pocket even before the patent application and fees.
Yes, it seems ridiculously expensive for sure. Well the patent itself can be $8,000.00 to 15,000.00. The guy I know first patented plant ended up being rejected in trials. He had to apply for a 2nd patent, and feels he will never get his money back even though Nourse is now selling his cultivar. The plant would have to be a clear winner! So I’ll probably give away anything I come up with. If that even happens.
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Someone jumped my claim.
I’m suing
Mike
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This is a volunteer purple raspberry . Suspected parents are Royality and Jewel . I have those 2 planted next to each other . This has the growth habit of the blacks . Bowcane tip rooting . Royality suckers from the root like the reds . Royality is said to be 3/4 red . I use Royality as a red as it does not turn purple until over ripe .
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I only got 1 fruit to set by hand pollination this year on my bramble breeding . Everything happened so fast this year . The heat came and pushed the blooming . I have a idea to try for next year to improve fruit set . I think timing on the crosses was my problem . I planted the proposed parents next to each other . I will try emasculating the seed parent flowers and let the bees finish the work . Not as controlled as bagging but should result in more seed to plant . I thought others might be interested in my approach .
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I crossed some raspberries last year. I have 4 seedlings I picked. Four seedlings that looked strong. They are still small. I don’t have room to keep more. Good news is I figured out scarification. 15 minutes in battery acid or 45 minutes in bleach appears to work best. So now I have the basics down and can move forward. Because of various non garden projects I must complete this year, I won’t be doing any crossings this year. Hopefully next year.
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I was out picking raspberries this morning . In addition to blacks and red patches merging I found a blackberry growing next to both types . I think I will save some seed from the blackberry . The bees may have done some crossing for me . Maybe I will get lucky .
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When people speak of breeding fruits it’s best not to overlook Van Mons work Untitled Document
"The American Journal of Horticulture and Florist’s Companion, 5: 274-276 (May 1869)
VAN MONS’S THEORY
By Robert Manning, Salem, Mass.
All of our standard pomological authors, in considering the subject of producing new varieties of fruit, invariably begin by reference to the theory and practice of Van Mons.
Van Mons was born at Brussels in 1765, and, at the age of fifteen, sowed in his father’s garden the seeds of perennial flowers, roses, and other shrubs, with the design of observing the development, the successive generations, and the variations which might thus be produced. To these he soon added seeds and stones of the well-known fruits, and remarked, that, of all his young plants, the pears were those which least resembled their parents. He searched the gardens, nurseries, markets, and neighboring provinces, to confirm or rectify his first ideas on the causes of the variation of fruits and flowers. When Mr. Van Mons had arrived at the age of twenty-two, the pivot of his theory was fixed; and this was the degeneracy of the seeds of fruit-trees in a state of variation. This degeneracy he regarded as a consequence of the age of the variety which bore it.
Having arrived at this conviction, Mr. Van Mons said, by sowing the first seeds of a new variety of fruit-tree, there should be obtained trees always variable in their seeds, because they can no longer escape from this condition; and which are less disposed to return towards a wild state than those produced from seeds of an ancient variety. And as those which tend towards a wild state have a less chance of becoming perfect, according to our tastes, than those which are in the open field of variation, it is in the seminary of the first seeds of the newest varieties of fruit-trees that we should expect to find more perfect fruit, according to our tastes. The whole theory of Van Mons, as stated by Mr. Poiteau in his memoir on the subject, is contained in the above paragraph.
But the question which concerns us is, What is the value to-day, with the light which the experience of Van Mons and others has thrown upon it, of this theory as a guide to the production of improved varieties of fruit? Here the first point that strikes us is the long time required for a fruit to pass through successive generations, which Van Mons estimated, in the case of the pear, at from forty to fifty years for five generations in the average of his experiments; though with other fruits, especially stone-fruits, an excellent quality was obtained in much less time.
Another point, which it is believed has been heretofore almost entirely overlooked, is, that Van Mons was not consistent with his own theory; for instead of sowing the seeds of new wild varieties, as is generally supposed, Mr. Poiteau expressly states, that, at first, Mr. Van Mons was unable to procure the seeds of varieties very recently procreated: the seeds which he was obliged to use to commence his experiments with were obtained from ancient varieties. Of the truth of this statement, we have evidence in the Queen of the Low Countries Pear, which Van Mons extolled as “very large, very beautiful and good, and, without question, the most perfect of pears,” but which is only a reproduction of the Spanish Bon Chretien, described by Quintinye nearly two hundred years ago. The experiments of Mr. Dana, Dr. Shurtleff, and others, have shown the incorrectness of Van Mons’s principle, that seedlings from a tree in a state of variation always degenerate. In adopting this principle, Van Mons appears to have been guided by the experience of Duhamel and Poiteau, who planted the seeds of the best table-fruits without producing a single one worthy of cultivation.
A difficulty which meets us in the attempt to judge of the results of Van Mons’s method, is, that, of the many good pears sent out by him, we have no means of knowing which ones were raised by him, and which were acquired from other sources; for Van Mons, like all lovers of fruit, was a collector as well as an originator. Besides this, from the multiplicity of his other cares, the thrice-repeated removal and breaking-up of his nurseries, and the carelessness of gardeners, much confusion existed among his trees, and, along with the many varieties of high excellence for which we are indebted to him, a still greater number of inferior or worthless kinds have been received; and, after having given much consideration to the subject, I do not know of a single pear of which I can say with certainty that it is the legitimate result of Van Mons’s method, and could have been produced in no other way.
I would not be understood to disparage or depreciate the obligations we are under to Dr. Van Mons. I do not forget that the Beurre d’Anjou, to which, as fairly as to any other pear, may be applied the praise which he lavished on the Queen of the Low Countries, a far inferior variety, is not improbably a seedling of his; nor that the Urbaniste was gained by one of his friends and disciples. Nor would I overlook the faith and zeal with which he persevered in an experiment occupying a period of time that would have appalled an ordinary man, and encountered difficulties and obstacles that might well have discouraged him. Still more do we owe him for the effect which his attempt — the first ever made to produce new varieties upon scientific principles — has had in stimulating inquiry into those principles, and causing the production by others of many of our most valuable fruits."
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Nice new video of a visit last month by DWN to the Zaiger breeding farm:
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I think that’s much more realistic than those who fantasize that they are going to get rich off patented varieties.
When i started breeding raspberries I got the help of a professional breeder. He pretty much set me straight about making any money. You need multiple patents and a big purse to pay for them. It takes about 20 years of breeding to make money. Zaiger spent that long and is now worth millions. All the same i decided I was not going to patent anything. Still I love breeding and I’m not going to ever stop doing it. I keep thinking of more and more projects I want to do.
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I love plant breeding. Everyone I know who does it for fun loves it and is successful because they’re happy with what they’re doing. Everyone I know who does it for money is bitter and frustrated and has never made a penny at it. I can list dozens of people I know personally who are having fun breeding plants because they are not in it for the money. I can also list maybe 15 or 20 people who are never happy because their only definition of success involves money. Those people typically refuse to share ideas, methods, germplasm etc. because they’re afraid they might help someone else. What they do not understand is that it’s almost impossible to make money off plant breeding especially if you are just one person. Zaiger has succeeded because of the immense scale of their operation. If everyone in this group got together we could not match the amount of time money and other resources Zaiger has put into breeding stone fruits. And if we had bred even one of Zaiger’s successes it still would have gotten little or no market penetration.
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My latest kick is strawberries. I was not planning on doing any breeding. Then I thought of a few crosses that I would like to see.
Sweetcrisp blueberry is the firmest blueberry out there. It is a Southern Highbush not well adapted to the north. So I want to cross with a northern to try and get a firm berry that is more adapted to my area.
Many of my ideas is to bring new flavors into very hardy plants that fit my area.
It’s not just breeding but also finding good plants. Recently I discovered a black mulberry (Morus nigra) that grew in zone 6 and fruited. Most will grow, but hardly ever fruit in Zone 6. They are zone 7 and higher type of mulberry. Well in Bulgaria one is fruiting in zone 6 and I obtained seeds. I got two to sprout and I hope this nigra is more adapted to my zone 6. It would be nice to have a male and a female plant, hopefully one at least is female. Males I could use for breeding. No nigra hybrids exist except for one that was just done and waiting to be confirmed. Bringing the superior flavor of these mulberries into a more hardy version would be an instant must have plant. As far as I know these two seedlings from this plant are the only examples in the USA of this line of hardy nigra’s from Bulgaria. It could turn out to be a very valuable plant if it really will grow here.I plan to try and do air layers off the mother plants or graft to test hardiness. I plan to protect these plants during the winter for now. My garage is attached and in winter has zone 8 coldness. So they will winter in containers in the garage until I can see if they are hardy enough to grow here. I’m very excited about these babies.
So far as far as breeding I have 3 peach seedlings. Goal was to create a red fleshed peach that ripens between August 15th and September 15th. I happen to love the red fleshed peaches and nectarines. I have 2, and this would give me one that ripens between them.
Next i would like to increase size. I will work on that with any seedlings that meet my first goal.
I wanted to create an orange raspberry. If you mix red and yellow you get orange. So I crossed a yellow with a red, and I didn’t get an orange, i got a pink. I’m going to try again with different yellows and reds. I’m going to use Cascade Gold which is the largest yellow berry by any cultivar. And Josephine which is a very large red. See what happens?
I do like the pink (named Irene) and will keep it. the flavor is excellent.
It does turn orange, but as it ripens it turns pink.
Here compared to a red, not fully ripe.
Fully ripe
I should get a few dozen fruits this year, so looking forward to evaluating the plant further. It grows faster than any of my other raspberries, it has many good traits. Raspberry breeders told me it takes 3 years to get fruit from seed. Well Irene fruited it’s 2nd year, it is showing great promise as a cultivar.
This is the first raspberry i ever crossed! Beginner’s luck! I have another that will fruit this year, but I don’t have high hopes for it. It also though is fruiting the 2nd year. As stated I’m going to try one more time. Happy with Irene anyway, yet still want to see what else can happen?
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Hello, all!
I’m reviving this old thread because y’all are just the people I want to talk to.
I’ve done some dabbling in fruit breeding myself, and I’m likely to be doing even more once we get moved out onto the acreage we bought. But I’m by no means practiced at the art, just possessed of a degree in genetics and some horticultural curiosity.
What I do have is a little podcast, for which I would like to do an interview - or perhaps a series of them - with people who are backyard fruit breeders. Why you do it, how you do it, what advice you’d have for someone who wants to start, that sort of thing. My personal grouse is that the major breeding programs and nurseries develop things more for commercial purposes, rather than the home grower. So new varieties suited to our purposes might be something we need to develop for ourselves.
Who’s game?
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