I would do multi-grafted M111s with different scaffold branches having apples that ripen at different times or store for different lengths, you could keep them to 15-18’ without to much work and use a picking pole
2600 is meaningless, 2600 Trailman apples weighs less than 10% of 2600 wolf rivers, that’s why everyone uses weight and bushels
Since I’m assuming you’re talking about grocery store apple size the USDA definition of large is 88 apples per bushel
So you want 30 bushels a year or 545kg
You’ll want to have significantly more long storing varieties because they will have to last through most of the year
Yields depend massively on variety, both in terms of amount every year AND the amount you will get on a year to year basis (some apples are very strong alternate or biennial bearers so they will produce tons of apples for you one year and very few or none the next unless they are aggressively managed for this)
[quote=“Phlogopite, post:21, topic:76164”]
2600 is meaningless, 2600 Trailman apples weighs less than 10% of 2600 wolf rivers, that’s why everyone uses weight and bushels
Since I’m assuming you’re talking about grocery store apple size the USDA definition of large is 88 apples per bushel[/quote]
Yea I get that but size ain’t everything. I am generally satisfied with apples large or small. Well too big is not good because I like one after every meal and don’t want to have to have any left over.
I am in the UK and I remember when going over there to visit everything was enormous in comparison. I would say approx the size of a man’s fist is what I expect of an average sized apple.
[quote]
You’ll want to have significantly more long storing varieties because they will have to last through most of the year[/quote]
Indeed I had understood that. It seems that good storers coincide with the ones I like anyway as I like crisp apples.
Ok, can you recommend some good ones bearing in mind I like crisp apples. I don’t know if you have Braeburns over there but that is my favorite of store bought ones so ones like that. Of course the whole point of having different varieties is to have different tasting ones or what would be the point but crisp would be my main criteria. I like tarter ones but I find if they are too acidic they can strip away the tooth enamel making them very sensitive so for regular consumption not too tart.
Also I am in the UK, as mentioned above, and from the replies so far it seems this forum is mostly US based users so I wonder how much advise can be transferred. Most of it seems applicable with the same rootstocks and the general upkeep advise but I wonder how much will be different in terms of weather and diseases and also apple variety availability.
In general the UK has an easier climate for growing apples than the humid eastern US so that’s less of an issue, sourcing is more of an issue. Here are some great apples worth looking into that are from the UK that would do very well for you, some variety in ripening time but they all have exceptional flavor and most store quite well
Also to this, why 111 and not M25? I figured if I was going big anyway, why not go the whole hog and get the maximum hardiness from M25 since that seems to be one of the main issues with my land people have highlighted.
Ye the grafting stuff sounds nice but sounds advanced so not going to be an overnight thing to me. Maybe I could do that later down the road if I so chose. Lots more crucial things to learn before than I think on my path to orchard management.
I think I will have plenty of years to learn while I wait for them to mature, but want to get them in the ground now but also want to make sure I am not making any major errors I wouldn’t be able to fix later. So it is about prioritizing what I need to learn to get up and running.
Cold hardiness? That will never be an issue for you
M111 is the best rootstock I know of for heavy and wet clay, which is by far your biggest issue and it would kill or lead to very poor performance for many other rootstocks unless you plant them on mounds and amend heavily
Grafting apples is dummy easy, one of the easiest, it would take less than an hour of watching YouTube videos and practicing on sticks on your yard to have good success rates with apples
They easily did it 2000 years ago so with modern materials and a good knife it’s extremely easy and also a massive saver of money, time, and for you the biggest priority space
Not cold, haven’t given that a thought, the clay/poor drainage issue. Are you saying M111 is even better than M25? From what I read M25 is the closest to ‘wild type’ you can get and thus the most hardy of the all is it not?
Ok, good to know, but I still have to have something to graft to eh? They will have to have grown a certain level before I have the actual material to try it won’t I?
So there are a few folks this side of the pond knocking about on here then?
I thought the logical option would be to ask the sellers directly but sadly nearly all have been very stingy with the information they give out, with terse few words, cut and paste, responses such as: “Here is what we have - see link”, “everything is listed on our site”. A little disconcerting. If I plan to spend a large wedge of cash on their wares I thought they could at least put a bit of effort into a reply. Maybe I am small fry and not worth their time.
You could also keep them at 10’ or 3’ with a lot of skillful pruning and tying down branches and giving them extra horizontal space. In the long run, it would probably be easiest to keep them around 10’ so you could do all the pruning and harvesting without any or much ladder use.
Once trees are bearing, which takes maybe 3-4 years longer with 111 than fully dwarfing rootstocks, the important advantage of more dwarfing rootstocks is that pruning is a whole lot simpler and less time consuming. Even on this, variety is almost as important as root stock.
Think you misunderstood my post. I wasn’t saying I can’t find information specific in the UK. There is no shortage of it and UK has a strong history of orchard growing.
I was just saying it would be nice to get some advice from the places where I intend to spend the cash and for information specific to what they stock.
Yeah, I get it. I would think that nurseries that supply commercial growers and have been in business for a long time would have someone in staff capable of answering basic questions. I find that nurseries here that sell stock to commercial growers tend to supply that kind of expertise, but not ones that primarily sell to hobbyists.
Depends on your definition of easy…tons of skillful pruning or just regular pruning and using a pole
Given you’ve pruned mature apple trees for 40 years or whatever it’s an obvious choice for you and I think for the average person it’s weighted somewhat in the other direction
I just read this interesting take which seems relevant here:
I’ve often said: rather than plant a dwarf tree and have to take care of it, why not plant a vigorous tree and neglect it such that it behaves like a dwarf but without the care requirement?
My “neglected” MM111 and M25 (vigorous) trees behave like a “fully managed” M26 (semi-dwarf) tree. The dry summers, shallow/low-fertility soil and aphid attacks really slow them down.
I work on the assumption that my “neglected” (apart from a winter tidy-up prune) MM111/M25 trees will mostly reach a mature size around 2.5m (8ft) at 10-15 years which is about what “the books” say for M26.
In other words: treat a vigorous rootstock roughly and it’ll behave like a dwarf. Treat a dwarf roughly and it’ll wither away.
That is a good list of apples Phlogopite offers from your region. I recommend Claygate and its take-no-prisoners strength of flavors. May I also suggest Lamb Abbey and Bardsey? They would give you some good eating earlier in the season, in that order: Lamb Abbey, Bardsey and Claygate.
For keepers, Wyken is small and its flavor profile might be worth comparing to Claygate (which I grow and enjoy). It is likely to pick and keep 4-6 weeks later than Claygate. Wyken will grow quite upright, from what I have read about it. Roter Eiserapfel (Red Iron apple: what a fine name) is one I searched for in the States. You might ask around for Hunt Russet, a colonial American apple that might have been brought to your shores.
Looking at the Brogdale list in “The New Book of Apples” Morgan/Richards, we find Glockenapfel keeping to April and Lady Williams (an Aussie) keeping to May.
I checked Keepers Nursery to see if they had Hunt. Nope. But they have Allen’s Everlasting, which they say keeps to April.
You never answered, or I missed it, on why you believe M111 to be better than M25 for less favorable environments? as I thought the opposite was true in the general rule of bigger being better.
I am generally satisfied with apples large or small. Well too big is not good because I like one after every meal and don’t want to have to have any left over.
1. NIAB EMR (East Malling Research, now part of NIAB Group)
Website: 
2. AHDB (Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board)
3. Fruit Growers Alliance & British Apples and Pears Ltd (BAPL)
4. The Orchard Network (formerly People’s Trust for Orchards / Natural England collaboration)