Can you plant pear trees below rootstock to get a standard size tree?

Clark, that info is wildly inaccurate as applied to my conditions and apples. I have managed nearly century old trees on M7, just not M26 as far as I know, but I’ve seen some pretty healthy and decent sized trees on 26 that might last that long. M9 I suspect is less likely. Century and much older apple trees on seedling are not at all uncommon. Same thing goes with pear trees on whatever rootstocks they were growing them on here over a century ago. A century ago and beyond, I don’t think any kind of dwarfing rootstocks were commonly used in this country.

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@alan

The same for me with pears in my experience I’m not sure what locations they are speaking of but according to them my pears are dead in 15 years but they are maxing production and showing no signs of slowing down after 27 years but they claim to be the experts. My apples do live similar here to their expectations. I’m assuming that is difference in climate and soil. Pear Tree Life Expectancy - What Is The Lifespan Of Pear Trees

"The pear tree lifespan is a tricky subject because it can depend upon so many things, from variety to disease to geography. Of course, that doesn’t mean we’re completely in the dark, and plenty of estimates can be made. Keep reading to learn more about pear tree life expectancy.

With optimal conditions, wild pear trees can live upwards of 50 years. Among cultivated pears, however, this is rarely the case. Often orchards will replace a pear tree before the end of its natural lifespan when fruit production slows.

As fruit trees go, pears have a long period of production, but they will eventually slack and then stop. Many home fruit trees slow down considerably in putting out fruit after 10 years, but pear trees will often outstrip them by quite a few years. Even so, if your 15-year-old pear tree no longer produces flowers or pears, you may want to replace it.

Pear trees grow best in warm, dry areas such as the Pacific Northwest, and they can be grown in these areas in much greater variety. In other places, however, there are only a couple of varieties that will thrive, and these have relatively short lifespans. The Bradford pear is very common, especially in cities, due to its tolerance for poor soil and pollution. The Bradford pear tree lifespan is 15-25 years, often topping out at 20 years. Despite its hardiness, it is genetically predisposed to a short life.

Its branches grow upward at an unusually steep angle, causing it to split apart easily when the branches become too heavy. It is also especially vulnerable to fire blight, a common bacterial disease among pears that kills off branches and makes the tree less hardy overall. So as far as the average lifespan of pear trees go, again depending on variety and climate, anywhere from 15 to 20 years is possible, given adequate growing conditions."

This is the stuff they are putting out there and maybe it’s true somewhere but it’s not true here. Consider Alan it could be that our trees are not succumbing to fireblight or other treatable diseases. We give them proper nutrition and prune them when needed. Perhaps we are just better orchadist.

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You want my opinion on tree lifespan I think part of the issue is commercial again. Once again commercial production comes into play in these articles. I remember reading articles about peach and nectarines where they said they lifespan was between 8-12 years. The reason they gave was due to decreased production. Many people on one of the articles claimed they had a peach tree growing over 40 years and still producing more than they can eat. The amount you get on land needs to be maximized with farming or else you lose money and in the case of peaches they produce so quickly and grow so quickly they are easily replaced. Apples and pears take much longer. Particularly on standard rootstock they take forever. That is why I think it is important to ask what the actual lifespan of these fruit trees are. That is much harder to find. In this case we are finding that those who are not talking about commercial uses have fruit growing on even semi dwarf pears and apples for over 100 years even though they state as low as 25 years. I know in the last few years one of the oldest apple trees in America died. I believe it was 190 years old… Old Apple Tree in Vancouver, Washington, dies at age 194 - CNN At the time I did not think much of this article but now that I am more experienced and thinking about longevity that story popped back into my mind.

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These are some old pears believed to be planted by napoleons army but clearly standards that are grafted. That makes them 200 years old. The fruit is no longer good. We know apples love new york soil. We know pears love Kansas. Beyond that there are many variables. Napoleon’s army planted pear trees fact or fiction?

These numbers look pretty realistic I think

"The beautiful thing about fruit plants? Unlike most vegetables, you don’t have to replant each year. However, the lifespan of a fruit tree or bush varies dramatically across varieties. Some olive trees produce copious crops after thousands of years, for example, while strawberries produce for just a few seasons.

Wondering what to expect from a fruit tree, shrub, vine, or perennial that you’re planting this season? Here’s a list of the typical lifespan of 20 common fruits below. And because plants, just like people, live longest when they are healthy, we’ve included a few tips on how to enhance the longevity of each.

Do you have a question for Modern Farmer? Tweet it to us @ModFarmer, or write us at AskModFarm@modfarmer.com

Apple | 10-100 years*

Fireblight, an incurable, highly contagious fungal disease, is one thing that can easily curtail the life of these long-lived trees. Always disinfect pruning implements before trimming apples to avoid introducing this pathogen.

Apricot | 10-30 years*

Apricot trees are extremely susceptible to fungal pathogens when grown in a poorly drained location. If planting in heavy clay, improve the drainage by sculpting the soil into a broad, gently tapered mound that rises about 12 inches above the surrounding grade.

Asian Persimmon | 30-50 years

These trees are sensitive to the proper nutrient balance in the soil. It’s best to keep nitrogen fertilizer to a minimum. And in soils with high pH, persimmons tend to develop an iron deficiency, which results in yellow leaves with green veins, a condition known as chlorosis. If this occurs, treat the soil with an acidifying agent (such as sulfur) or fertilize with iron chelate.

Blackberry | 5-10 years

These brambles quickly grow into an impenetrable thicket, which prevents good airflow – the natural remedy for the fungal pathogens that blackberries are susceptible to. Thin, prune, and trellis the canes on an annual basis to maintain good health.

Blueberry | 30-50 years

Blueberries thrive in cool, moist acidic soil with lots of organic matter. To ensure a long life, mix equal parts peat and compost with the planting soil and maintain a six-inch layer of mulch around the shrubs at all times.

Cherry | 10-25 years*

Cherry trees are extremely susceptible to fungal pathogens when grown in a poorly drained location. If planting in heavy clay, improve the drainage by sculpting the soil into a broad, gently tapered mound that rises about 12 inches above the surrounding grade.

Citrus | 40-80 years

In temperate climates, the single biggest threat to citrus is cold weather. Any time temperatures threaten to dip below 40 degrees, citrus trees must be protected. If such weather is a rarity where you live, simply cover the trees with a tarp on the occasional cold night. Otherwise, plant citrus in large tubs so they can be moved indoors to a sunny window during the winter months.

Currant | 10-20 years

These shrubs hail from northern forests, which means hot, dry conditions are their death knell. Unless you live at a high latitude or elevation, or in a cool coastal climate, plant currants in a location with afternoon shade.

Fig | 30-50 years

Fig trees live longest when their roots have the opportunity to dry out a bit between waterings. Mixing sand into the planting soil and sculpting it into slight mound is an easy way to achieve this in high rainfall areas or where drainage is poor.

Fuzzy Kiwi | 50-70 years

These vines are fairly robust and trouble-free – if planted in their preferred climate. They do not tolerate cold winters, nor high humidity, which means the West Coast is primarily where they thrive. If planted elsewhere, they don’t tend to last long.

Gooseberry | 10-20 years

These shrubs hail from northern forests, which means hot, dry conditions are their death knell. Unless you live at a high latitude or elevation, or in a cool coastal climate, plant gooseberries in a location with afternoon shade.

Grape | 50-100 years

Grape vines live longest when their roots have the opportunity to dry out a bit between waterings. Mixing sand into the planting soil and sculpting it into slight mound is an easy way to achieve this in high rainfall areas or where drainage is poor.

Mulberry | 40-60 years

These robust trees rarely fail to thrive, though they are a favorite target of deer during the sapling stage. If deer are prevalent in your area, be sure to fence off your mulberry trees until they are at least 10 feet tall.

Nectarine | 10-25 years*

Nectarine trees are extremely susceptible to fungal pathogens when grown in a poorly drained location. If planting in heavy clay, improve the drainage by sculpting the soil into a broad, gently tapered mound that rises about 12 inches above the surrounding grade.

Olive | 100+ years

Olive trees live longest when their roots have the opportunity to dry out a bit between waterings. Mixing sand into the planting soil and sculpting it into slight mound is an easy way to achieve this in high rainfall areas or where drainage is poor.

Peach | 10-25 years*

Peach trees are extremely susceptible to fungal pathogens when grown in a poorly drained location. If planting in heavy clay, improve the drainage by sculpting the soil into a broad, gently tapered mound that rises about 12 inches above the surrounding grade.

Pear | 10-100 years*

Fireblight, an incurable, highly contagious fungal disease, is one thing that can easily curtail the life of these long-lived trees. Always disinfect pruning implements before trimming pears to avoid introducing this pathogen.

Plum | 10-25 years*

Plum trees are extremely susceptible to fungal pathogens when grown in a poorly drained location. If planting in heavy clay, improve the drainage by sculpting the soil into a broad, gently tapered mound that rises about 12 inches above the surrounding grade.

Pomegranate | 20-30 years

Pomegranate trees live longest when their roots have the opportunity to dry out a bit between waterings. Mixing sand into the planting soil and sculpting it into slight mound is an easy way to achieve this in high rainfall areas or where drainage is poor.

Quince | 10-100 years*

Fireblight, an incurable, highly contagious fungal disease, is one thing that can easily curtail the life of these long-lived trees. Always disinfect pruning implements before trimming quince to avoid introducing this pathogen.

Raspberry | 5-10 years

These brambles quickly grow into an impenetrable thicket, which prevents good airflow – the natural remedy for the fungal pathogens that raspberries are susceptible to. Thin, prune, and trellis the canes on an annual basis to maintain good health.

Strawberry | 3-4 years

This groundcover quickly grows into a dense mat, which prevents good airflow – the natural remedy for the fungal pathogens that strawberries are susceptible to. Thin the plants to one per square foot on an annual basis to maintain good health.

*The lower end of the range for these plants applies to dwarf varieties; the middle to semi-dwarf varieties; and the top to full-size varieties."

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There are apples trees all over the place that no one knows how old they are. There is a tree I manage that was likely a huge tree that snapped off to about 8 ft and branches below became a new tree with new tissue surrounding a rotting trunk. Perhaps what grew up is from below the graft union and perhaps not- it certainly is a good enough apple to be a selected variety and quite large.

The only apple trees that get noticed tend to be in publicly known places where generations were aware of the tree- I suspect the vast majority of ancient apple trees in this country are on abandoned farms where the history has been lost. Trees like the one I mention couldn’t even be measured for their age if you tried- wood of a section of trunk would have to remain intact and old apple trees tend to rot in their centers- so how could you possibly measure the rings?

As far as the link Clark originally provided- just because someone works for cooperative extension doesn’t mean they know their arm from a tree branch. The response was idiotic and inexcusable from my perspective.

You can answer a question about how long trees are allowed to remain in a commercial orchard before they tend to be replaced for younger, more productive trees, but how do you confuse that with the potential lifespan of a tree?

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@alan

Maybe they lived in my part of Kansas my apples do terrible here overall. Do get some apples but they dont really like it here. Nearby places can grow them fine here in Kansas. For my location the original estimate on life seems OK. The second link is better because it says 10 -100 years so maybe a location like mine standards die in 40 years but maybe other places apples live to be 100. That seems a better way to describe apples. Who’s apples die in 10 years? Same with pears 10-100 years seems better.

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What is the potential lifespan of a sequoia tree in death valley? You are such a kind man, but I’m a rather demanding one. If someone assumes the role of a teacher they need to at least make a reasonable effort to keep their facts straight. I used to go to conventions that were set up to make the organizers money in exchange for providing credits to their customers as needed to sustain ones pesticide license.

Extension agents were common speakers and they could pretty much say anything they wanted to that happened to make sense to them, however their in field experience tended to be very limited so their logical leaps were only supported by text information and not by real world experience.

I went to these things twice and it was not very educational for me, it wasn’t even worth trying to correct them when they made obvious errors, it would only disrupt the flow and no one was really there to learn anything.

Now I take on-line courses for my credits. They contain a lot of info not the least bit related to managing orchards, but at least the facts are straight.

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I’ve never seen an old apple tree killed by FB after 30 years of managing hundreds of them. I manage even more young apple trees and haven’t lost any of them to FB either (a few pears, yes). Obviously, if they are old they probably are the survivors of it, but I’m talking about literally hundreds of varieties. Dwarf trees are much more likely to be killed by FB and entire orchards are sometimes wiped out by it.

The first fruit tree I ever tended was an already growing cot in Topanga Canyon in the yard of my family home where we moved in '63. My father died in 2015 and the tree was still going strong- it was probably already 10 years old when we moved there. I’m confident it thrives to this day if it wasn’t cut down. In the high desert in New Mexico there are untended apricot trees that look to be nearly a century old.

I’ve managed several Queen Anne cherry trees that I believe to be close to a century old and in one case it is documented, because the owner died at 85 recently and it was planted by his mother before he was born.

I cut down a 30 year old nectarine this winter because I have too many trees and better varieties.

There is a 2,000 year old one in Crete

I could go on, but these numbers could just have been pulled out of someone’s behind where sun don’t shine. What are they based on? Do you really think any effort was done to come up with accurate numbers? How would you even go about doing the research? Who would pay for it?

What is the source?

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I think the dwarf trees when mature have more drought tolerance than they are given credit for. Most roots for even standard size trees are concentrated in the top two feet of soil. Look at this link about 1/2 down the page to see the complete root system of a M9 tree.
The M9 and rhizotrons | The Gardens Trust

Now dwarf trees roots can’t compete with weeds and grass so you do have to keep the area around the trunks clear or you will have problems.

Commercial growers aim for maximum yield and are willing to sacrifice flavor by keeping the trees wet as possible. I don’t want to sacrifice flavor and I don’t need maximum yield. I have silt loam or silt clay loam depending on the location and depth which retains moisture fairly well and that helps a fair bit. I don’t water mature trees normally and I have no drip irrigation. This is more than adequate for Illinois. I will water them in drought conditions using a hose if I think they need it. But I also have a vegetable garden which is split in two sections. One section is about as far from the water spigot as the orchard and the other (where the tomatoes grow well) is about twice the distance. So it’s easier to water the apple trees than it is the tomatoes :slight_smile: . The water requirements for the apples are lower than the vegetable garden and much much lower than say mop head hydrangeas.

Gene’s orchard in Chicago is pretty good example of a backyard dwarf apple orchard. He did irrigate the trees on M27 (the trees are super tiny) but felt the trees on M27/M111 or M9/M111 didn’t need irrigation and he kept these interstem tree pruned to dwarf size. The interstem trees weren’t big at all.

http://www.midfex.org/App_Pages/Yale/intro.aspx

Also ironically Gene’s orchard lives on after his death. The trees were small enough that the whole orchard was dug up and moved to a new location. If it had been on M7 or something bigger it would of been removed with chainsaws.

For commercial production the only common malling dwarf roostock is M9. It’s been used as a baseline rootstock for most of the NC-140 dwarf rootstock trials and has been widely planted in most of the country. So if had problems in certain regions the NC-140 trials would show this.

I have no experience with pears and can’t really comment on them. Cherries are shifting to lower vigor rootstocks mainly semi-dwarf. They would shift to dwarf if Gisela 5 didn’t have problems with fruit sizing.

I have looked for the reference for the 100yr orchard on M9. I have seen it in two places, one of which was a primer for high density orchards from one of the universities. I haven’t found it yet but I will keep looking.

I am just growing apples as a hobby. Most of the apples I give away to family, friends, and neighbors. I have no illusion I will break even in terms of money on the small scale I produce fruit. But I have read about the pay back period on commercial orchards and it’s long. And it gets longer the larger the trees are.

@alan

My apricots I planted 27 years ago but they only fruit every 5-7 years. Yes the numbers are generalizations. Standard apples get trunk rot here after about 40 years. Sometimes they live on and on. Like I said my life is only so long but my ohxf rootstocks are doing OK just like callery. The topic question as you know was originally should I plant this tree lower making it a standard as they are longer lived. My thought is standards are longer lived but an ohxf87 will likely outlive most people. The experts are not giving us any help here Alan apparently. That must mean your more of an expert than them. As far as pears go they do great here and I occasionally see an old one get fireblight but it’s exceedingly rare there vigor gets lower as they age. Fireblight only attacks vigorous dividing cells like flowers and fast growing wood. If someone over prunes then I see fireblight attacking.

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Interstem trees are not dwarfed by weak roots. Better to stick to M9 if we are going to talk about relative drought tolerance. They are clearly poor water miners and don’t tend to do well in unirrigated sandy soils according to the literature. If you can find any evidence that they become more tolerant as they get older, beyond just the fact that any tree that gets bigger is going to have a larger root system I will be interested. I’m not a slave to literature if you have contradicting real life experience, but the survival of your interstem trees is useful to those that want a drought tolerant but smaller tree. However, I believe an interstem 9 with 111 roots is almost as vigorous as an M7 from my own experience. I used to grow Badwins in my nursery with that combination.

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I somehow missed that mistake first skim through. We know better don’t we? Who wrote this stuff?

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@alan

Fireblight is bacterial yes not fungal. That is bad but they are the experts. We better quit looking at these articles! Here is Kansas I just do what I do to get pears. My feelings are they don’t know like I said originally we can’t know longevity there are many variables. If we keep the trees healthy they live a long time. There was a Pear tree producing here that the settlers planted. Cut it out when I expanded the pond. It wasn’t very tall so i do wonder what the experts would say about that. We answer this question occasionally on pear rootstocks The hunt for seedling pears - #9 by clarkinks and A shoutout for assistance please: tree records and The modernization of flowering pears - #3 by tonyOmahaz5

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Something I would keep in mind is Illinois and Michigan are extremely favorable growing conditions. The amount of rain they get is pretty amazing and the soil there is amazing. My mother has a cousin that lives there and we are so sad we don’t have their growing conditions. In regards to cherry the reason cherries likely go to smaller sizes is cherries are a massive size even when dwarfed and there are only a few self fertile varieties. Of the sweet cherry varieties I have searched the cherries that are self fertile are black gold, white gold and Stella. I am likely missing a few varieties. For a backyard orchard in a big city a 40 foot tree is a no go like Alan said. Standard cherry trees will tower over people. If you live in the country and have a acre of land or more great you will get a fair amount of cherries from a standard size tree but many in the cities could only have two cherry trees and that would be with one in the front and one in the back.

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@alan

Gave @39thparallel some callery scion wood this year to graft as an interstem on some ohx87. Then he can graft some pears over that don’t like ohxf87 rootstock. Typically people see it the other way around.

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We have favorably conditions in terms of rainfall and fertile soil. But we have much higher disease and insect pressure than in arid regions or even New York or Michigan. Apples and cherries have never really been successfully grown here on a large scale like they are in New York and Michigan. We do have some small commercial orchards.

It’s quite possible to grow great fruit in arid regions because insect and disease pressure is low. As long as you don’t run out of water and that usually means importing water from somewhere.

The size of sweet cherry trees has always been a problem. In Cherries of New York they talk of cherry orchards being abandoned once trees grew too large to effectively harvest. So it was a problem even in the 1800s.

If I had a 40 foot cherry tree I wouldn’t be able to effectively spray and harvest the tree. And it’s not just people with small city backyards that have these issues. Take a look at these trees.

We have gotten better ways to harvest fruit high up luckily is the thing with height. One time Clark posted a link to a website called decapole. They have poles that will extend up to 30 feet high. This mean you can harvest fruit up to 35 feet if you are typical size. It you are 6 or 7 feet tall you can harvest up to 35 feet in the air. I think the average height for a lady is around 5 4 and the average height for a guy is 5 8. Modern technology is amazing even if it is something as simple as putting a basket on a pole to harness the fruit. The pole is 94 dollars but will get you a lot more fruit so I would say it evens out over time.

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Sure on sandy soil that doesn’t have any moisture retention most dwarf rootstocks are going to struggle if not irrigated although some dwarf rootstocks do better than others. But they will do fine on heavier soil. If you have the trees located at some remote location without irrigation this would be a real problem. But I have my trees near my house in a backyard orchard on soil that retains water. Which is pretty typical for members in the forum. If I see them struggling in a drought I can water them. Same is true for the other plants in the yard. And in a really bad drought even large trees like oaks and maples can struggle as well as full size apple trees. And watering doesn’t require any real skill.

But I could of went with trees that were on M111. I had the space. Let’s consider that case. I would of planted fewer trees and the trees would of ended up larger. I would needed a larger ladder to prune them which would have meant that it would have taken more time since working from the ladder is much less efficient than working from the ground. I can do most of my pruning from the ground with the dwarfs except for a few cuts. I would need much better, more expensive spray equipment to spray the trees. Harvesting would also require more ladder work.

I would also need to have excellent pruning skills. I do okay now but I have quite a bit of experience now. When I started out I doubted my ability to be able to prune a large tree well. And with good reason. My grandfather’s 4 in 1 apple combination on standard roots was huge and dominated his small city backyard. It was never pruned as far as I know. My neighbor’s “semi-dwarf” Golden Delicious was 30 feet tall and he harvested it by shaking the tree. It was never sprayed and I don’t think he ever pruned it either.

So I realized from the beginning that I might not be successful in pruning, spraying and harvesting a large apple tree. If things went poorly I wanted a tree that would be easy to remove. Not a 30 foot tall tree like the neighbor’s. Also if I planted six trees on M111 and had a good harvest I could have 20 bushels of apples (or more) to deal with. I don’t need 20 bushels of apples. So I think the trade off of having dwarf trees is acceptable. Is possible that I will need to water the trees in a drought in the future-yes. But people around here are pretty successful at keeping tomatoes alive in drought. In general, though they don’t seem to do very well with large fruit trees.

Now I really wanted freestanding trees in the beginning on B9/M111 interstems but they really weren’t available. I didn’t want to stake trees permanently but eventually I came around to the idea.

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I agree with you that 111 leads to extra pruning work and requires more skill in the process than less vigorous varieties, of course. But apple trees in decent soil tend to grow very vigorously in my climate. I couldn’t make recommendations for someone in Arizona because I don’t know how much that very different climate affects vigor and tree longevity. A more vigorous tree tends to be a better survivor against adversity.

In my region, if you are looking for early productivity but a (potentially) free standing tree with the least amount of work, I recommend M26 or similar-sized rootstock. Installing a trellis and tying branches is another tedious task.

If you want to plant a legacy and trees kids love to climb on, stick to more vigorous rootstocks- more than half of orchards I manage are maintained by new owners after they are sold- that is they continue to employ me, I cannot speak for the others when I lose the job.

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Most extension publications are pretty accurate, IME, but they are not written by extension agents, they come directly out of the universities, I believe and from information to be used by commercial growers, at least originally. The reality they are based on may not apply to your orchard but at least they are not likely to be written by someone who doesn’t understand the material they are writing about.

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