Clarkinks pear varieties growing in the orchard in 2023

This entire thread is an enabler and Stark Bro got me. I just ordered three bare root pear trees.

Blake’s Pride (Standard)
Shenandoah (Standard)
Red Clapp’s (Standard)

I’ll probably pot and babysit them untill they go dormant this fall, then set them out. I hope they come “feathered” with scionwood :grin:

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@JesusisLordandChrist

Sometimes after we confess what pears we are growing we all feel better until the next year. Then we wind up growing 20-30 new pears. Top worked many types this year myself! Some didn’t work out. This is my new list but i’m really still working on some of my old list.

Alexander Lucas
Bonne louise d’avranches pear
Gem
Bell

This thread lets you know what i was planning for 2023. My plans were changed slightly and some will bleed over into 2024 Pear varieties I'm researching in 2022

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Lots of good looking new pears out there!

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@clarkinks,

have you tried Mericourt?

http://www.chathamapples.com/PearsNY/PearsSEUS.html#Mericourt

Mericourt
Breeder(s): Crosses and selection done by Dr. J.A. McClintock. Released by Brooks D. Drain; University of Tennessee.
History: ‘Mericourt’ resulted from a ‘Seckel’ X ‘Late Faulkner’ cross and was tested as Tenn38S63.
Rootstocks used: OHxF#'s 333 & 513, P. calleryana seedling and Angers quince (Grootendorst Nurseries- avoid them!- insisted on sending ‘Mericourt’ scions grafted onto quince, even after I informed them that ‘Mericourt’ is incompatible with quince! These trees not-surprisingly failed to grow more than a few centimeters and then died.)
Orchards grown in: Cumming (Coal Mountain community), GA; Apex, NC; Pittsboro, NC orchards A & B.
Notes:
Fruit quality: Excellent flavor and texture. Flavor is sweet and juicy, but with wonderful perfumed aroma. Texture is buttery and flesh and skin are smooth, with no noticeable grit cells. One doesn’t need to peel these pears, as the skin is not objectionable at all.
Fruit size: Medium. 138 median g/fruit in 2009; 176 g/fruit the following year.
Fruit appearance: Attractive bright smooth yellow, often with a red blush on the sunny side when fully ripe; no russet. Pyriform shape.
Culinary characteristics: We’ve never cooked them. They are too good for fresh-eating and fruit salads.
Storage characteristics: Keeps in common refrigerated storage for at least 4 weeks- they were eaten before we could keep any longer.
Harvest season: Mid-season; mid-August to early September in Pittsboro, NC. Just after and overlapping with ‘Ayres’ and roughly with ‘Spalding’.
Bloom season: In my experience, ***vs ‘Spalding
Diseases: Very resistant to fireblight. Somewhat resistant to pear leaf spot.
Precocity: average precocity; first fruit set in *** year on *** rootstock.
Productivity: Low productivity could be the most-limiting characteristic for using ‘Mericourt’ in a commercial setting. Then again, it hasn’t really been looked at by professional horticultural scientists, who may be able to boost yields. It tends to bloom heavily, but then set only a few fruit. I have seen productive specimens on both OHxF 513 and calleryana rootstock, but I have not had a chance to understand why those trees were productive and other trees were shy bearers.
Bottom line: Recommended for both home and commercial growers. This tree may challenge the commercial growers, but the fact that some trees are quite productive suggests that this one barrier to profitability can be overcome. The fruit is attractive and delicious. People who try these pears want more. This may be the University of Tennessee pear breeding program’s crowning achievement. Growth habit: Pretty decent growth habit on both dwarfing and calleryana rootstock. Spreading and mostly wide crotch angles (for a pear).
References other than my own experience:
B.S. Pickett 1966. The Mericourt Pear from Tennessee. J Fruit Var & Hort Digest. (APS) 20:76-77.

“excellent flavor and texture” “very resistant to fireblight” “people who try these pears want more”

seems perfect if you are moving to only resistant pears but I cant find it anywhere

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@rubus_chief

I grew it for a while, but it didn’t ever do great here.

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Wanted to point out this information was released by the USDA back in 2004. After reading the pdf attached and this link Pyrus bretschneideri an interspecific hybrid of Pyrus pyrifolia x Pyrus ussuriensis - fireblight resistant It will become very transparent what im doing and why i do it.

“Fire blight. Resistance in P. communis is relatively rare, with only 5-
10% being rated as at least moderately resistant (Oitto et al., 1970; van der Zwet
and Oitto, 1972; Thibault et al., 1987; van der Zwet and Bell, 1990). Old dessert
cultivars most consistently rated as resistant are ‘Alexander Lucas’, ‘Tyson’, ‘Seckel’,
and ‘Maxine’; resistant cultivars developed by recent breeding are ‘Harrow Delight’,
‘Harrow Sweet’, ‘AC Harrow Crisp’, ‘AC Harrow Gold’, ‘Moonglow’,
‘Honeysweet’, ‘Magness’, ‘Potomac’, ‘Blake’s Pride’, and ‘Shenandoah’.
Therefore, sources of moderate to high resistance, although not immunity, do exist
in European pears. With the exception of ‘Seckel’, and to a lesser extent
‘Magness’, these cultivars have not, to our knowledge, been extensively planted or
evaluated in commercial size trials. There is a small amount of commercial
production of ‘Magness’, primarily in the eastern and southeastern US. The newer
cultivars have not yet been widely planted or evaluated, and thus, it is not certain
whether they can be considered to be suitable replacements for susceptible
cultivars. Additional resistance is available for use by the breeding program within
introduced P. ussuriensis and P. x bretschneideri germplasm and hybrid selections
from breeding programs.”
PyrusCGCReport2004.pdf (171.5 KB)

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This document was later released in 2013. This screenshot is an overview of fireblight resistant pears.

New-Fire-Blight-Resistant-Pear-Cultivars-MAFVC-2013.pdf (1.2 MB)

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It is important to watch these varities

and other new varities with fireblight resistance

In addition i continue to monitor and analyze the usda pear catalog for fireblight resistant types.

https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/20721500/catalogs/pyrcult.html

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Please document spring and fall colors with disease resistance, rot resistance.

AND some ancient pears to try even if planted along roadside or waste areas.

I keep getting it will not accept links which puzzles me-I tried doing paste to unformatted rich text and paste but it still doesn’t want to post saying links. Can anyone help on how to make the site accept stuff?

The Apennine mountains of central Italy are home to an ancient and rare variant of the European pear (Pyrus communis) called the Cocomerina pear. A study conducted by local researchers revealed that this pink-fleshed pear is a superfood bursting with natural antioxidants.
It is one of the so-called “ancient fruits,” which are very old and only found in a few small areas. The Cocomerina variant of the European pear is restricted to the Apennine area of Romagna and Tuscany. The early-ripening cultivar is harvested in August, while the late-ripening one is collected in October.

and from some of my historical look see copy and paste information-I have it on apples etc. and can forward wpd docs to anyone who wants it if you send me normal aol kind of mail address.

	Pears

Two centuries later, in Rome, Pliny the Elder described 41 varieties, whereas his parallel list of apples was much shorter. During the Middle Ages the pear was especially popular in France and Italy, and most pears grown in Britain were from French stock. FORTY-ONE VARIETIES OF THE PEAR.

1495 Bon Chretien d’Hiver (Italy) A Tetine, Bon Chretien, Bon Chretien d’Angoisse, Bon Chretien d’Auch, Bon Chretien d’Hiver, Bon Chretien de Constantinople, Bon Chretien de Tours, Bon Chretien de Vernon, Crustemenie, De Chretien, De Dos, De Fesses, De Bon Crustemenien, De Saint Martin, Good Christian of Winter, Panchresta, Poire d’Angoise, Poire d’Apothecarie, Winter Bon Chretien, Winter Good Christian Bon Chretien d’Hyver, or Good Christian of Winter. This is a very large pear, of the form of a truncated pyramid - the blossom end is much swelled, the eye deeply sunk in a furowed cavity, which forms angular ridges extending themselves t the body of the pear; the end towards the stalk is much diminished, without being pointed; it terminates obliquely: the stalk is about an inch long,and fleshy - this pear is sometimes six inches in length and four in width; the skin is a finely grained clear yellow, approaching to green on the shady side, with a bright red towards the sun - the flesh is fine and tender, though breaking, very juicy, mild and sugary; sometimes odoriferous and vinous - it is ripe in January and lasts till Spring; the leaves are of moderate size, the foot stalks of great length.
1500 Petit Blanquet (France) Perle According to Leroy it was well known in French gardens as early as the middle of the sixteenth century. Fruit very small in size, usually obtuse-pyriform but quite variable in s hape. Skin clear, straw-colored, waxy, few green dots. Flesh moderately fine, firm, not juicy. Sweet but lacking in desirable flavor and texture characteristics. Early in season. First known in Europe under the name of Perle.
1500 Red Pear (England)
1500 Sanguinole (Germany) With a very long history in Europe, it was first mentioned in Britain by John Rea in 1676, though it is likely to be the Blood Red pear of Parkinson in 1629.
1500 Verte Longue d’Automne (France) Autumn Mouthwater, Coule Soif d’Automne, Long Green, Long Gree of Autumn, Mouille Bouche d’Automne, Panachee The name means ‘Long Green of Autumn’. Not to be confused with ‘Longue Vert’ which is a distinct variety. The origin of this ancient variety is uncertain. It is known to have been grown extensively in France 450 years ago (in 1957). The German author, Henry Munger, considered it identical with the variety ‘Viridium’ supposedly described by Pliny during the first century A.D. The validity of this deduction, however, was questioned by European authors of a later period. Fruit medium in size obtuse-turbinate in form, sometimes lopsided. Skin generally green in color with prominent gray dots. Flesh fine, melting, juicy. Usually quite sweet and pleasing in flavor but may be of mediocre quality unless properly grown and handled. Early midseason. Tree vigorous, upright in habit, fairly productive. Quite susceptible to blight
1530 Petit Muscat (France) Versailles Quintinie choice Chiot, Little Musk Little Bastard Musk, Muscat Petit, Muscat Robert, Petit Muscat, Petit Musk, Primitive, Sept-en-gueule, Supreme Jean Mayer, director of the gardens of the Grand Duke of Wurtzburg, Bavaria, in his ‘Pomona franconica’ published in 1801 showed that the petit-Muscat was the antique pear Superba described by Pliny. Various other pomologists wrote of it prior to Mayer as for instance Jacq. Dalechmp, 1615; Jean Jonston, 1662; and Henri Manger, 1783. Charles Estienne was the first to write of it in France, 1530, and he named it Musquette. Fruit very small, turbinate, more or less obtuse and sometimes globular-turbinate; the eye is placed in a regular-formed cavity and is always naked in consequence of the segments of the calyx falling off, pale greenish-yellow, finely dotted and slightly clouded with rose on the side of the sun (in France); fles yellowish, semi-fine, breaking, not very juicy, sugary, acidulous and with a pleasant musk flavor; second; June
1536 Bergamote d’Automne Versailles Quintinie choice One of the oldest pears in existance possibly dating from Roman times. Origins are uncertain. One of the oldest pear varieties still in existance. It was known in the Middle Ages and may date back to Roman times. Small, flat to round apple shaped fruit. Rarely bergamotte shape despite its name. Pick Sep-Oct, Rough, greenish yellow skin, usually with a red flush. Heavy golden or brown russetting. White melting, quite juicy flesh. Rich aromatic flavour. Compact tree. Regular cropper.
1550 Messire Jean (France) Oct top quality fruit for drying. A very old pear with a mysterious history. The famous French Pomologist, Leroy, said it appeared around 1540 and Scott was in agreement. It was known to John Evelyn in Britain before 1669. Early in its history, there were observations that several different versions existed, though La Quintinie said they were all same in 1690.
1559 White Doyenne (Italy) Raintree This old French cultivar is prized for its melt-in-your-mouth texture and superb flavor, both fresh and cooked. Tastes like a fine, rich buttery chardonnay, sweet-yet-tart, with musky undertones and a strong perfume. The favorite pear of famous chef Alice Waters, it ripens in September. USDA Zone: 4-9
1575 Black Worcester (England) An ancient and historic pear with very dark skin. One of the best traditional cooking pears. Origin: Worcestershire UK, 1575 Pollination: Black Worcester is a self-sterile triploid and would require a pollinator to produce a crop. Black Worcester pear is a very old variety of uncertain origin possibly dating back to Roman times. It is known to have grown in Worcester, UK before 1575 when Queen Elizabeth I saw it at Whystone Farm. Large, oval to pyriform fruit. Dull green skin almost entirely covered with a reddish brown russet. Often has a purple flush which gives the fruit a black appearance and hence the name. Pale yellow, hard, gritty flesh with little flavour when eaten raw. Never softens sufficiently to be used as a dessert pear. Pick late Oct, good storage to late winter. But one of the best cooking pears. Requires slow cooking for 1-2 hours. The flesh turns a lovely pale pink on cooking. Moderately vigorous, spreading tree. Reliable cropper. Attractive in the autumn with colourful leaves and fruit.
1575 Spina Carpi (Italy) Royale D’Hiver (Spina di Carpi) This is a very large pear, of a pyriform shape, much swelled at the blossom end, and diminished towards the stalk in such a manner as to exhibit a triangular figure when viewed in profile - the skin is smooth and fine, a handsome red towards the sun, yellow on the shady side, spotted with little dots on the red, and russet spots on the yellow - the flesh is half breaking, melting, of a yellowish cast, the juice very saccharine; the eye is very small, and planted very deep - the stalk long, and large at the extremity; the time of ripening is from December to February; in the appearance of this pear and the Muscat Allemand there is little perceptible difference; as delineated by the Abbe Rozier, they resemble each other very much, and it is stated by the same author, that they are frequently confounded by the French gardeners, they are bot highly estimable in winter fruits.
~1598 Besi d’Hery (France) Originated in Brittany, France, about 1598.Besi/Bezi = wild Breton. Fruit medium or smaller in size, globular in form. Skin deep yellow, usually with prominent red cheek, quite free of blemish, very attractive. Flesh moderately fine, hard in texture, lacking in juiciness. Fairly sweet but somewhat bitter in taste. Late keeper. Tree reasonably vigorous, wide spreading in habit, average foliage, moderately susceptible to fire blight Besi d’Hery = PI 541130 (56.002) - Pyrus communis L.

  • Virus Biological Assays - Negative: NP-1987 PV-1987 Traits: LATE RIPE, ANCIENT, HEIRLOOM, DIPLOID (flow cytometry 2012)
    1598 Sucre Verte (France) The name means ‘Sweet Green’ in English. Origin obscure. Believed to have come from Barmont, a chateau on the boundary of Burgundy. Described as early as 1598. Well known in Paris by 1670. Fruit small in size, roundish-turbinate in form. Skin smooth, glossy, intense green in color with inconspicuous dots. Flesh white, fine, but with some grit at the center, buttery, juicy. Fairly sweet, nut-like aroma, pleasing flavor. Early midseason. Tree vigorous, spreading in habit, very productive. Moderately susceptible to blight
    1600 Barland (England) One of the most popular Perry Pears, the Barland Cider Pear Tree has been grown in England since the 17th century. Besides being used to make delicious cider, its juice is reputed to be useful for the treatment of kidney disorders. Use it alone to make a cider or blend with Brandy Cider Pear Tree. A letter from John Beale to Samuel Hartlib dated 9 April 1658, courtesy of Sheffield University Library.
    In some hundreds of places of this small County, wee have now tried it That the harshest & unpleasant peares, or wilde apples make the richest & most winous liquor. Without hyperbole, I assure you, as being in sport & for further testimones oft-times an eye witnesse to it, That our hungry swine will not bite these peares, & most especially the bareland peare of Bosbury which makes a liquor That in common houses & with little or no care increaseth strength & excellency for 3 yeares together, & in the second yeare takes a deepe fulvous color, & hath a pungent stroke on the tongue as I have found in well-commended Greeke Wines.
    1600 Doyenne d’Alecon (France) In 1559, the first pear tree, a White Doyenné, was imported to the New World. This world-renowned pear came from France via Italy where it was described in 1550 as the old Roman pear, Sementinum. Some fireblight resistance
    ~1600 Thorn (England) Thorns trees are scattered throughout England’s perry growing districts; particularly common in northwest Gloucestershire. Was once widely planted for dessert and culinary purposes for which it is now considered too astringent. Popular on account of its compact habit and heavy cropping. The resulting perry, which is medium acid, low-tannin, can be of very good quality.
  1. ROUSSELET DE RHEIMS Versailles Quintinie choice A truly ancient pear first mentioned by Le Lectier in 1628. An ancient variety believed
    by some European authorities to date back to the beginning of the Christian era. It is definitely known that the variety has been grown in the vacinity of Rheims, France, for several centuries. It is said to have been the favorite pear of King Louis XIV. Fruit small in size, roundish-turbinate in form, somewhat irregular. Skin greenish-yellow in color, blushed with dull red on sunny side, sprinkled with gray russet dots. Flesh white, semi-fine, buttery but not melting, moderately juicy. Extremely sweet, aromatic, spicy flavor. Almost equal to Seckel in dessert quality. A little later than Bartlett in season. Susceptible to core breakdown. Tree very vigorous, spreading and willowy in habit, almost standard tree on quince, productive. Moderately susceptible to blight
    1628 Bergamote d’Ete Bergamot Summer, Bergamotte d’Ete, Bergamotte d’Angleterre, Bergamotte d’Hampden, Beuvrier, Early Summer Bergamot, Hampden’s Bergamot, Milan and Milan blanc, Milan Beuviere, Milan Blanc, Milan de la Beuvriere Place and time of origin unknown. Mentioned by Le Lectier in 1628 under the name of ‘Milan de la Beuveriere’. Fruit medium in size and generally globular in form, sometimes slightly turbinate. Skin pale green in color, occasionally tinged with yellow, occasionally blushed, numerous dots. Flesh white, fairly fine, quite free of grit, juicy. Moderately sweet, somewhat acidulous, pleasing flavor. Rather early in season. Tree vigorous, with grayish foliage. Moderately susceptible to fire blight
    1628 Beurre d’Angleterre (England)Almond Pear, Angleterre or English Beurre, Archiduc Charles, Bec d’Oie, Beurre Amande, Beurre d’Angleterre, Beurre Judes, Dobbel Amandel (of the Dutch), English Beurre, Long de Monkouty, Longe de Markouts, Longue de Monkowty, Longue de Nakourts, Monkowthy, Noisette, Poire d’Angleterre Angleterre or English Beuree is rather above the medium size, round at the blossom end, diminishing to a point at the stalk, which is long and large - the skin is smooth, of a greenish yellow; the flesh tender, half buttery and melting, apt to rot soon; it ripens in September with many of the finest pears
    1628 Citron de Carmes (France) This is a very fine early fruit - the size is small, not much larger than the Hativeau - the skin green, the flesh juicy, buttery, and highly flavored - the taste, when not too ripe, sugary.
    1629 Epargne (France) Versailles Quintinie choice Cuisse Madame,English Jargonelle alias Lange Lijsje This is a pear of a long shape, below the ordinary size, diminishing gradually towards the stem, which is about an inch in length, large, an dplanted rather on one side - the crown is not hollowed; the skin is of a greenish cast, blotched with spots of a fawn colour, and sometimes with a little blush - the flesh is melting; the juice sprightly and agreeable - it ripens about the beginning of August
    1629 Jargonelle (France) A very old early dessert pear. A high quality sweet juicy pear.An ancient variety of unknown origin first recorded in 1629. It is one of the
    earliest summer pears to ripen. Medium sized, long conical fruit. Fairly smooth, greenish yellow skin with some brownish red flush and many small russet patches. Pale yellow, tender, juicy flesh. Very sweet slightly musky flavour. Like all early ripening varieties the fruit must be picked and used as soon as ready.Moderately vigorous with a rather straggling growth habit. Heavy cropping. A tip bearer and therefore not suitable for training into cordons or espaliers.
    1650 Beurre Gris (France)Versailles Quintinie choice (?Beurre Gris d’Hiver A large sweet juicy late ripening pear requiring warm location.)
    1665 Catillac (France) One of the oldest and best of the cooking pears. Oct stores to Mar. Believed to have been found in Cadillac in the Girond, France. Considered as one of the best cooking pears. Large, bergamotte shaped fruit. Smooth, dull greenish yellow skin. Dull reddish flush and faint stripes. Occasional russet patches but usually clean. Hard, white, granular flesh. Suitable as a cooking pear only. Needs to be cooked slowly for 1-2 hours. The flesh turns pink when cooked. Vigorous tree with spreading and weeping growth habit. Very hardy. Regular and heavy cropper. Large attractive blossom. Scab - Very resistant
    1665 Chaumontel (France) Chaumontel pears of extraordinary size are sometimes obtained by removing most of the fruit from a tree
    1675 Guenette
    1685 Besi de La Motte (France) (Bezy = Wild Bretonne) Originated in Brittany, France, about 1598. Fruit medium or smaller in size, globular in form. Skin deep yellow, usually with prominent red cheek, quite free of blemish, very attractive. Flesh moderately fine, hard in texture, lacking in juiciness. Fairly sweet but somewhat bitter in taste. Late keeper. Tree reasonably vigorous, wide spreading in habit, average foliage, moderately susceptible to fire blight. – H. Hartman, Oregon Experiment Station Bulletin, 1957 This variety has proven much hardier than Flemish Beauty on prairie soils of the West.
    1690 Belle Angevine (England)
    1690 Pound (England) Syn. Durondeau Raintree One of the largest winter pears, weighing a pound or sometimes two. It is a heavy bearer. Pound was a favorite for hundreds of years in America, England and France where it is called Belle Angevine. Pound possibly dates back to Roman times. We got our start from a National Park orchard Raintree helped to restore on San Juan Island WA, that was originally planted in 1870. The green pear has firm flesh that turns yellow and is delicious when stored and cooked in the winter. Historically it was sometimes baked whole, wrapped in pastry crust. USDA Zone: 5-9
    17th c. Forelle (Germany) A very old pear, known since the 1670s and probably originally from Northern Germany. The name is the German word for a trout, as the prominent lenticel markings resemble the spots of a trout belly. The fruits have a shiny skin, which is light yellow flushed with bright scarlet, and juicy, melting, sweet flesh. Best in a warm spot. Pick October, eat from November to January. Pollination Group B. (Bernwolde)
    1700 Taynton Squash (England)
    ? Rousselet de Reims (France?)

Early flowering pear varieties include:2 & 3
Beth
Beurre Hardy
Conference
Invincible
Louise Bonne of Jersey
Packham’s Triumph
Sensation
William’s Bon Chretien

Late flowering pear varieties include:4
Concorde
Doyenne du Comice
Glou Morceau
Onward

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Hocking hills lists Cocomerina. I don’t have any further details.

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Pears are being added again this year to ensure i’m growing the most fireblight resistant types. 2024 will be interesting if it is anything like 2023. In addition to fireblight resistance we want high quality pears with large size.

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As interesting and extensive these writeups are for particular pear varieties, not many of them mention chill require estimates.

I guess that happens more on the sellers side than the breeder?

Of the many threads I’ve read in this forum that is an almost constant…the people with the most knowledge of a variety seems to never mention chill.

Perhaps that’s because in any given location that is developing and testing variety they already know it produces otherwise they couldn’t breed them.

Since I’m on the other end of things, I first things am looking at are FB resistance and chill requirement estimates. Without those two pieces of information matching my area climate, I may as well not even think of growing it.

Next of course is taste, harvest time, and even how the fruit looks…

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@Shibumi

Many unknown pears like leona i’ve seen very seldom outside this forum or my own collection.

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This is a very good approach. As you know, I’m of the belief that chill hours for “European” apples and pears is mostly hogwash. At the same time I’ve observed that degree days can be very important. In my intracounty move 10 years ago, I changed locations from cold hardiness zone 10a to 10b (by my personal weather station). I have been able to grow and fruit everything from the past at this new location. However, they don’t all ripen. Apples have been particularly disappointing. I attribute it to the cooler spring (Apr-June) brought on by local marine layer.

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If more of us still lived an agrarian lifestyle, we would have so many more varieties of fruit trees we know work in each of our locations.

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Ripening season not an issue here obviously as we have a very long growing season.

Many comment on giving up / taking out varieties that never bloomed for them. Perhaps I will find that with some of the pears I intend to try out…whether ‘chill’ is the culprit or not.

At least pear leaves are quite ornamental compared to, say, plums.

Gladly since grafting exist, I can always change over varieties that don’t work here.

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I suspect rootstock and plant culture have been the main issues.

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That’s both encouraging and disheartening.

Encouraging in that I may have success, but also disheartening as I may make the same mistakes.

:joy::+1:

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Hi,

Is your small yellow pear the same one being sold at St Lawrence nursery? They have a small pear listed called Clark pear. Wanted to make sure it’s the same variety. Thanks

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@jxz7245

I wish I knew but unfortunately I do not. My guess would be that is my small yellow pear. I would give them a call and ask them the history