Companion Planting

Perhaps you did not plant the 3 sisters properly. I plant 2 of the sisters together each year and they do well. Timing is everything though. I plant sweet corn (about a foot apart and 2 feet in between the rows) and let it grow a couple feet high and then I come back with pole beans seeds. Also, very important is making sure that you harvest ALL ears off the stalks when they are ready, else it weakens the stalk and won’t support the pole beans properly. I’m pretty sure that I could add winter squash in the mix, but it would need to be planted at the ends of the rows and trained to go down the middle. I would plant the seed around he same time that I planted the pole beans or a little after.

Have you seen Stefan Sobkowiak’s “The Permaculture Orchard: Beyond Organic”? It’s only 7.50 for the DVD download version and he gives information on fruit guilds as well as other interesting information.

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FWIW I had always heard that one plants squash on the perimeter of the beans and corn, to keep the critters out.

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In a sweet corn field, we planted pumpkins every 6 feet to keep the raccoons out. It worked great in Geauga County Ohio. They do not like the spines on their delicate paws. They make great ground cover. I have read that natives also planted beans in with them to add nitrogen, and they did the whole business in mounds. We just did corn and pumpkins in rows.

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Hi,
Brilliant ! Well done. I would love to know more as I live in a malarial area so that would like a dentist inventing teeth :wink:

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I would say the natural system takes years to cultivate and you cant just plant like 5% companion plants and then have a yard full of things inviting pests like pure grass lawns and fruit trees etc… I feel you need to find a good balance and then things have to weed themselves out on what works. I do think it takes years and your first year going natural is more difficult. It took me time to invite in all the native predators and every year i find more starting to come in. You need to help the predators along by identifying pests and still utilizing proper IPM based upon your area. Try to do things that make things better over time rather than worse things like traps, and sprays like thyme or rosemary oils, neem, or spinosad that are less harmful on predators than pests or compost tea sprays or fish/kelp and beneficial bacteria mixtures that improve plant health are important. Its hard when everyone around you grows just yard but when they see there fruit fail and you have a harvest they do start asking questions on what you are doing i have found. Invasive pests are the hardest because they usually have no natural predators yet (They come) and with climate change and the bypassing of customs from amazon etc as well as just the speed at which we transport produce we are going to see a lot more i think.

What i think almost always works is tomato and basil, chervil. Peppers and chives and three sisters (needs a lot of water). I wonder if you just planted to dense like you said and they wanted more water in general? My goal is to build more worms and organic matter each year and turn my clay into a better sponge.

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Thanks for all of the info. I am slowly transitioning my lawn over to more healthy plants that are both productive and nice to look at. I will just take it bit by bit and see what works. Honestly I really don’t like grass it seems like such a waste to water/fertilize it and try to keep weeds out for very little return. Most of my trees are already fully developed so it will be more a matter of the companions catching up to them, but I can maintain them the way they for now.

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^^^ Good luck with your project. Permaculture style gardens are absolutely fascinating and are treasures IMO. I don’t believe anything is more rewarding than creating a functioning ecosystem.

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May i recommend incorporating dutch or micro clover and creeping thyme and if you are into it letting dandelions go for the lawn areas.

@PermaAZ one of my favourite activities is watching all the beneficials run around and do there thing. Just watching bugs is fascinating.

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for the last 6 yrs. I’ve been doing this to my 3/4 acre lawn. i now have 50 varieties of fruits, nuts and medicinal/ beneficial plants growing in strait, wood chip mulched rows. I’ve underplanted my bigger trees and bushes with a lot of wild perennial plants. i have 10 comfrey plants around the yard to use as fertilizer for the other plants. i have chickens that provide me with great manure to also put around my plants. the life that has moved in there is phenomenal! my property is ringed with old growth black willow an big norway spruces which give cover and nesting areas for the birds. I’m surrounded by houses and old fields but yet i get blue jays and woodpeckers hanging out in my trees. a large family of black capped chickadees are regular residents also. the spruces are full of them!

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I think there is a scientific basis for synergism of various plants, especially as it relates to nutrient uptake. In terms of deterrent plants of certain pests, I think there is also scientific grounds for that.

However deterrence is different than significance. In terms of significance in reduction in insect pest damage as a result of companion planting, I’d like to see some peer reviewed research in humid/summer rainy areas demonstrating such. I don’t think it exists.

I think most testimonials ascribing companion planting as a viable alternative to conventional insect pest control are from locales where insect pest pressure is low anyway. I think in these cases success of no spray fruit may be attributed to companion planting, when in reality the success of no spray is due to low pest pressure of the locale.

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From my experience a neighbor of mine who is a certified master gardener from CSU’s program has told me many times that what I was doing would not work, That i could not plant that many dwarf plants and put so many competitive plants near them, that i will never get any fruit from any of these plants, That all of my plants need supports and cannot be planted at any angles and that I will be forced to spray and if not that I would be a host for uncontrolled insect growth. He was correct about the Quince being a disease magnet in my location and i shoveled that thing right out when i saw what it did to my apples, so i do think you need to be able to adjust to your environment and grow plants that work in your locale.

When i show him all the beneficials and he never finds these huge pest colonies he is honestly kind of angry and continually thinks i spray some sort of fungicide secretly and that’s why he cannot find powdery mildew all over my yard. Personally I just get a kick out of giving his wife bags and bags of peaches, cherries and peppers and tomatoes. Living near me has been frustrating for him because he has been forced to try things he thought could never work since he watches me continually have success.

His yard is bright green amazingly manicured and great landscape plantings all over full of powdery mildew and his fruit trees and flowers get swarmed by bugs, he dislikes never seeing mason bees but is happy and upset at all the wasps in my yard (Never gotten stung mind you). He uses many chemical pesticide and fungicides and tries to only weed-n-feed or glyphosate a few times a year. If you asked him he says he is a natural gardener and those are the chemicals you need to use living here and he has been in the nursery business for a long time so this is true. I showed him my CSU Agriculture book from 1938 Titled Soils and Men which talks about how chemical pesticide will cause immune pest insects and fertilizers and current day farming techniques are causing the dust bowl and that they will not be able to be used forever without massive consequences.

I think plants need root competition and the overlaying of deep rooting and shallow rooters is incredibly beneficial. I think at a point when you go natural you have enough beneficial bacteria and fungi to coat and shield your plants similar to what happens in the forest. I think going no spray requires tremendous diversity that many orchards will not have but that incorporating natural methods would be beneficial to all aspects of farming and the way we need to ecoscape for the future so we can actually live side by side with nature. I think at a point when you get enough people or natural areas you see a equilibrium in nature and if everyone grew things other than just food for pests we would see less pests overtime.

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Hi Richard,

Since you replied to me, I assume you are responding to my post via your personal experience.

While I think personal experiences can have merit, I don’t think testimonials, by themselves, offer any substantive proof companion planting can eliminate the need for spraying in rainy climates, at least as it relates to growing stone fruits.

There are a number of factors which contribute to the success of a no spray program in stone fruits. Climate by far being the biggest factor. Other factors off the top of my head include: size of the planting, length of time fruit has been grown at the planting site, amount of unmanaged fruit trees around the planting site, amount of urban sprawl located around the planting site (urban sprawl tends to reduce insect pressure of fruit pests), diversity of fruits grown at the planting site (diversity in this sense being a negative, as some pests like SWD and OFM can cause more damage with more diverse fruit plantings).

It can be difficult or impossible to isolate all these factors to any statistical significance when comparing testimonials. Additionally sample size is so small, and lack of an experimental control render testimonials outside the scope of scientific analysis.

Your locale would not be considered a rainy climate with high insect pest pressure. Denver receives about 9" of rainfall during the peach growing season. Compare that to KC (where I live) which receives about 26", almost three times the amount of rain during the peach growing season. This is significant as it relates to insect production.

I’ve been in Denver (and Boulder, which receives about the same rainfall as Denver) and was amazed how few insects there were. I walked through a public garden in Boulder and spoke with some of the gardeners. They don’t have the insect pressure we have here. The difference is stark.

When I mow in the summer, there are so many insects they plug up the intake grills on the tractor. The barn swallows come out in force to gobble up insects as they pour out of the grass.

Here is a video I took this summer of barn swallows swooping to catch insects in front of the tractor. The barn swallows are hard to see in the little window, buy you can see some of them if you watch the video on full screen… I apologize the video turned out sideways, but I can’t figure out how to rotate it correctly on youtube. If you want to watch it, you’ll just have to turn your head sideways :grin:

A lot of these insects are beneficials like lacewings (I know because I have to clean them of the grills of the tractor). Despite all the beneficials, they can’t keep up with the amount of pests we have here. One female PC lays over 100 eggs (most during a time where there aren’t many beneficals to attack adult PC or the eggs she lays). OFM lays up to 200 eggs. It just takes one viable egg to ruin a fruit. Even if beneficials were able to devour 80% of the eggs, the amount of crop loss would be very substantial. Of course things like mating disruption can reduce chemical inputs, but that discussion is probably outside the scope of this thread.

There are a lot of commercial organic farms which raise peaches in Colorado. As far as I know there are none in Kansas or Missouri. The difference is due to climate.

I’m genuinely glad you have found a way to raise food in your locale without any sprays. Also thankful for you that your hard work is being rewarded. I’ve learned over the years that most people can raise some food in their climate without any sprays. In rainy climates like mine, the decision of what type of food to grow is key if no pesticides are to be used. In that sense, without pesticides, any stone fruit would be a non-starter in my locale, regardless of what companion plants were grown.

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@RichardRoundTree and @Olpea I think both of you are right, for your given locales. Location makes all the diff in the world.

I would agree, that the front range of CO is a very different climate than the East or Midwest; and I can’t say that I miss all of the extra insects and diseases you guys in those places need to deal with. But Denver and the front range do have their ag issues too. And BTW, the commercial peach orchards are not on the front range of CO, but rather up around Paonia in the south central mtns. (Although years ago I did own a house in Boulder which had a huge peach tree in the back yard that did produce, the few years I was there at least) Weather on the front range is a bit too variable for most commercial orchard ventures.

I have lived and gardened in both these places, and it is clearly true that Denver has much lower disease and insect pressure. I don’t think that necessarily means that RichardRoundTree’s experience is not applicable to wetter climes (but likely not his exact solution). There are many examples of people in wetter climates (and drier ones too) successfully using these techniques; but they do need modification for different places.

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To be fair boulder is pretty much pesticide and glyphosate free and has been fighting the use since the 1970’s and there is a general air of acceptance of natural gardening techniques. There are no organic orchards for stonefruit near me as there are not orchards in the front range anymore because of flash freezes. The sample size i would like to offer you is the forest and woodland areas. They make it good when there is diversity.

I have lived in KC and while i love how green it is and all of your fireflies we definitely have a pretty vast weather difference and certainly humidity is higher and some disease pressure is higher. Its my understanding that powdery mildew and fireblight are much higher pressure for me than they are for you. I really respect what you do and i do believe you do the best to grow things but certainly at one point peaches grew organically in kansas city. Do you have any varieties that can make it disease wise without chemical fungicide sprays? I think the idea is that with a lot of beneficial fungi and bacteria in the soil and sprayed around certain varieties may be able to cope. Lets say we lived in a different world if you could multi crop garlic and chives under your peaches and only spray beneficial bacteria’s or essential oil sprays and changed most varieties to stronger more disease resistant would you be able to still make money and enjoy your life if your peaches were worth double (i’m sure they should be worth more) and you had a second crop of produce it may end up working out. I think you do a great job and I am not telling you that you should do this I am just saying that we probably need to work towards a place where sustainability is possible.

Its awesome watching all the birds do there thing and it seems very beautiful and serene, however grass is like fruit trees it mainly supports pests, intertwined with clover this can be useful but what really supports beneficial pest insects would be a 5 acre or border of flowering perrenials (possibly considered weeds) with the majority being summer or fall blooming and all nectar and insect pollinating plants.

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Richard,

I suspect powdery mildew is higher for you. It’s one of the easiest diseases to treat, but I can understand it may be challenging for you if you don’t use any sprays. I’d be surprised if fireblight was worse in your area than in KC. It’s well established fireblight needs rain or very heavy dew to wash the bacteria down in the flowers. Plus higher temperatures during bloom also increase risk. Both Maryblyt and Cougarblight models are based on those variables. Here in KC, we’d have more rain/heavy dew and probably warmer temps at bloom, hence more fireblight.

I don’t spray for fireblight and have lost some pear trees (which are generally more susc. than apples). I still get strikes in pears (even in blight resistant pears) but haven’t had any completely cooked in a while.

Kansas used to be the 6th largest peach state in the 1890 census. I have an old peach book written in 1898 given to me by a friend. It’s called “The Peach - The Kansas Peach” The book is available in digital form online.

It’s true just about all food was grown organically at one time, but losses were substantial and yields pretty bad by today’s standards. It wasn’t that farmers were opposed to using pesticides, just that they had nothing available. Things like locust (grasshopper) plagues would remove the entire crop. We rarely have those type of events anymore.

Some of the first pesticides were copper based (bordeaux, bluestone, etc.) If you look in the book I recommend above, you’ll note copper was recommended to fight brown rot, scab and leaf curl in the late 1800s. Arsenicals like lead arsenate and Paris green were used extensively in the 1800s. They weren’t used on peach trees except during the dormant season to fight twig borer in western states. Arsenicals are toxic to peach foliage, so they weren’t used during the growing season.

Undoubtedly less chemicals were used for peach growing in Kansas in the 1800s, but it would be a misnomer to think their practices were sustainable. Farmers used cultivation for weed control, which as you know contributed to the Dust Bowl and the erosion of millions of tons of soil every year.

Hogs were used to control PC under peach trees. This actually has some benefit imo. Hogs root up the soil and eat the wormy drops, thereby disrupting the life cycle of the insect. However, even with hogs, PC was considered a major pest of peaches in the 1800s. Today, even if a farmer wanted to use hogs, it would violate new food safety rules (FSMA).

Lastly pests which attack peaches have gone the same way as other food pests. Namely pest pressure has increased substantially over time, mostly due to the introduction of new pests. This is a long a sad history.

Some of the more infamous introductions, were Late Blight, which caused the potato famine in Ireland in the mid 1800s. The boll weevil decimated cotton in the South. It wasn’t until the advent of DDT that southern farmers were able to start growing cotton again. Of course monoculture made the effects of these pests worse, but the point is that farmers didn’t have to deal with them prior to their introduction.

Fireblight was introduced to the rest of the world from the U.S. Even in the U.S. it took some time for it to become established in the Hudson Valley and kill all the pear orchards there. Oriental fruit moth is one of the most significant pests of peaches. It wasn’t introduced in the U.S. until 1913. Fortunately it takes some time for these pests to spread, so it took quite a while for OFM to become ubiquitous in the U.S. Codling moth, the most severe pome fruit insect pest in the U.S. was introduced around 1800. I recall reading it hadn’t yet reached Kansas by the time of the Civil war. Canada has still been able to prevent it’s introduction in certain parts of their nation, to this day. Japanese Beetle was first discovered in the U.S. in 1916. It wasn’t until 1992 that it became established in Kansas. SWD was first found in the U.S. in 2008. Until then a lot of farmers in the South and Midwest prided themselves on growing brambles without sprays, myself included. Not any more. One grower who I knew from a farmer’s market simply quit growing brambles because of SWD. I could go on…

The forest you mention is also a diverse place, but it really doesn’t qualify as a large sample size when evaluating the hypothesis that companion planting can substitute for pesticides. Forests grow a lot of food, but we humans can only consume a very narrow range of the food spectrum (relatively speaking). Any farming enterprise is somewhat anti nature because nature doesn’t grow human food in abundance.

As I mentioned, it sounds like you’ve done a good job of figuring out how to raise fruit in your climate. But those cultural practices don’t translate from a dry climate to a wet one very well. About 10 years ago I stayed at a cabin for a week about 20 miles from Gunnison CO. I know they get a few less inches of rain/year than Denver, but it was so dry it bothered my sinuses. There were no insects. Except for concern of bears, we could have slept with the door open in mid summer. We’d be eaten alive by insects if we tried that in KC.

Water not only produces life, it produces life in abundance and diversity. The ancients recognized this, “The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” etc. Just like with the insects, we have much more diversity of life in our soil than you could ever have in Denver because of the amount of rain we get. A healthy soil has thousands of species of life in a cubic foot. The wood chips I put down grow all kinds of fungi, bugs, earthworms, etc.

I’ve found most of the commercial growers who promote a no spray culture of fruit growing live in low pest climates. This makes sense to me because we are all somewhat formed by our experiences. The few growers who advocate no spray in wet climates are either new to farming, or don’t really farm.

The link posted above by Mr. Clint 4 years ago is an example of that. Stonegate farm really isn’t a farm. If you look at the pictures on his Website closely, the guy “farms” about 1/2 an acre. Then you look at what he grows and it’s mostly flowers and herbs. He has a few small pome trees. He’s not a farmer, he’s a backyard gardener. Nothing wrong with that, but this man gives lectures on farming sustainability when he’s never farmed and is even on a Congressional Agricultural committee as an advisor (scary). He should stick to advising on marketing and photography, which is how he seems to make his living.

I should probably clarify, if it’s not clear, I am referring to fruit farming and more specifically to stone fruit. Tart cherries and American plums may be able to be grown commercially without sprays, although I’m not aware anyone is growing American plums on a commercial scale with no sprays in a wet climate. Tart cherries may be able to be harvested early enough to avoid sprays in certain wet climates without sprays.

As I mentioned it is possible to grow no spray fruit in wet areas, but selection of species is critical. I grow Pawpaws here with no spray. I used to grow American persimmons with no spray, but didn’t like the taste of them, so pulled them out. I could grow tomatoes with no spray, although I choose to spray them because I don’t have time to pick hornworms off 175 large tomato plants. Plus I’d have significantly more harvest loss to disease if I didn’t spray, but I could get some tomatoes with no spray. Several vegetables can be grown here without pesticides.

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I feel you sort of made my point here Olpea although i realize we see things differently.

Before KC used to be able to have no spray orchards and it produced large amounts of food that fed the country before you guys went to just monoculturing growing winter wheat and sorghum.
Before the Pests were worse to the farmer but KC still produced a crazy amount of peaches with no spray.
So in my opinion what you are saying is our current farming practices are making it unsustainable to be able to grow things naturally and the problem is getting worse and you need more and newer pesticides fungicides and herbicides each year right?

Now i would like to point out that i am not blaming you and think you do a incredible job at land stewardship. I believe you use the chemicals you need to use to sustain your farm and livelyhood and i also am positive that you care about what you produce. One person cannot make the difference on there own but part of the reason people can farm naturally in california and the west is because of our natural space. I live on the belt of the largest natural area in North America the Rocky Mountains. Have you ever watched any joel salatin videos? They are mainly animal based but i think you would enjoy them.

When do your apple trees bloom olpea, I know you are in a high fireblight area as am I, usually our apple trees bloom may to late may for some varieties it can be close to 90 degrees by then and inside the flowers its always high humidity and with our 40% stronger uv index if you were to go out with a temperature zapper you can find the leaves in the 90s. So while i agree you are wetter and have a lot of the conditions for fireblight your spring is much earlier and a much more even temperature but your right i do not know whose fireblight pressure is worse you guys just seem to be able to grow apples and pears that we cannot and what i can tell you is we have tons of landscape trees that are carriers as i am sure you do also.

Invasives are very difficult and probably what we should save pesticide use for, so they are not immune to everything, However when we import invasives eventually we usually import there predators also, Now i am not reccomending this but it happens.

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I suppose neither of us can say for sure which has higher fireblight pressure since we don’t have any comparative scientific data at our fingertips (a quick google search didn’t yield anything for me). I would have thought KC would be higher simply because of our higher rainfall and humidity. It sounds like our apples bloom about the same time as yours. I didn’t know it was that warm during your apple bloom.

Temps in the 90s would actually decrease risk of fireblight. In fact, anything above 85F and the risk of fireblight decreases substantially. Temps above 90 will actually burn fireblight strikes out. The most favorable temps for fireblight are in the 70 to 80F range.

That’s not what I was trying to communicate, nor what the data suggest. Farmers in KS still had to contend with leaf curl, brown rot, scab or bac. spot. They sprayed for all these diseases. They sprayed various forms of copper to control them, because that’s all they had.

The only significant insect pest they had to deal with was PC. The only means of control they had available for peaches was running hogs under the orchard or shaking on sheets. They were able to grow lots of peaches in spite of PC, but losses were greater. One farmer in the book mentions he lost virtually his whole crop to PC.

Those farmers did not have to deal with OFM. This is significant because any peach orchard at a commercial scale in KS/MO would lose the whole crop to OFM, if they did not spray.

It is correct that pests are becoming more resistant to pesticides, which is what one would expect. As you are aware, the same thing is occurring with antibiotics. The sad truth is that when you use a “poison” to control a living organism, eventually that organism tends to adapt enough to become resistant to the poison. The sun is “poisonous”. Were I to move closer to the equator the skin color of my descendants would slowly become darker, as my lighter skinned descendants died out, rendering my darker descendants more immune to toxic effects of sun exposure.

The obvious question becomes, what happens when the organism becomes resistant to the poison we are using against it? Some “poisons” will continue to remain effective for a long long time. Captan is a multi-site fungicide, so risk of resistance to pest fungi remain very low. More selective fungicides will likely become useless sometime in the future.

To date, scientists have been able to continue to develop new products, to combat resistance. However, imo this probably won’t continue. Antibiotics aren’t being developed fast enough to match the adaptive resistance of bacteria. Hence we now have cases where people must take antibiotics intravenously in order to save their lives.

Imo, the next breakthrough will probably involve some type of genetic tinkering of various organisms to try to solve this overall problem, in both medicine and agriculture. But of course, predicting the future is very dicey at best, so my thoughts on that subject are purely conjecture.

We may lose 95% of the population by some new pandemic (that risk goes up as population increases). A doomsday event like that might bring a new “Dark Age” where technology is lost. In that case we might move to a less chemical dependent agriculture with lots of open “wild” spaces.

Thanks for the compliments on my land stewardship. I do try.

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