How firm would you say they were, Dax? Can you describe the texture at all at that stage? Certainly some persimmons lose their astringency before they get fully as ripe as they’ll get and before they fall. Fully and reliably losing astringency on the early side does seem like a great trait in a persimmon.
As an aside, though, while persimmons like you describe sound very appealing, I also like great big persimmon trees that are super productive but where all the fruit is out of reach until it falls, in which case the trait you describe wouldn’t really matter. For example, I have friends with a very large 2-stemmed tree that seems to drop an average of approximately 1 to 5 gallons per day for multiple weeks. I think there’s definitely something to be said for that kind of tree, and picking persimmons up from the grass is probably a lot quicker than picking persimmons off a tree, even if it were a tree with fruit that was all easily reachable from the ground.
I went to my orchard and had a bite on a firm orange fruit of 100-46 as suggested…and guess what…it was astringent…very astringent. I have to admit I didn’t expect it to be otherwise. American persimmon has to be soft and loose from a stalk to be edible.
Jerry Lehman sent me some fruits of 100-46 and H63-A a long while back to try before I try to graft and grow American persimmons. Both of those need to be soft rippened before eating them. That goes the same with Meader, Lena, and Early Golden.
It seems to me like maybe the discussion of whether persimmons can be eaten before softening is looking at the question too black-and-white. I think there definitely are marginal differences in how soon persimmons lose their astringency, and I think those relative differences are nonetheless significant and valuable enough that it could make sense to want to make those relative differences a leading selection trait. Dax may have made the difference seem bigger and more black-and-white than it is, but you all agree there are differences, right? Some persimmons can be eaten off the tree before they get completely as soft as they’re going to get and before falling, and other persimmons are almost always astringent until right before they fall, and other persimmons are mostly astringent even after they’ve fallen and have gotten as soft as they’re going to get before just outright rotting, isn’t that all true?
Here is my contribution to the topic. I grow 14 varieties that I received from Jerry Lehman: Early Golden, H-63A, H-118, H-120, I-93A, Juhl, Knightsville, Lena, Mohler, Prok, U-20A, WS 8-10, 100-45, 100-46. Two received from England were regrafted as Contessa was small, and poor grower and F-100 was just producing male flowers without any fruit. Sometimes I wonder if his wood is true to name. We had a perfect year without any late spring frost and long hot summer. Plenty of time to compare…and the winner is WS 8-10 aka Barbara’s Blush large and beautiful fruit with excellent taste, just about right to ripen here. It falls down clean from the tree without shrivelling. H-63A and H-120 come second, both are early and great to eat, H-63A has really good strong flavour. Third would be Prok - it is large and early but mild in taste. I will also keep Mohler - earliest cultivar with good taste and size and probably Early Golden for vintage reasons. The rest is more or less disappointment in my area: 100-46 nice good size fruit but never ripens the whole crop here. H-118 I really dislike because of the black spots on the skin look dirty and it takes forever to ripen. Juhl is OK, good size and taste and I’ll probably keep it.
I was shown an uncommonly sweet native persimmon yesterday that can be seen directly behind the green box in this link.
Flavor was unusual for a wild persimmon in this area. It was relatively rich persimmon with roughly twice the sweetness I’ve tasted from other trees. There is a very slight astringent aftertaste, just enough to emphasize the sweetness. Fruit were slightly elongated which is another unusual trait for the area.
Harbin, I’m curious, since you’re growing all those different persimmons outside the range of wild American persimmons, did you plant a male pollinator? Have you noticed male flowers on any of your females (especially Early Golden, which I hear produces some male flowers)? Have you had any seedless fruit? How seedy are your fruits typically? Have you noticed any difference in seediness between cultivars?
All my 90 chromasomes American persimmon fruits we’re seeded without growing any male D.V. The Meader and Early Golden had some cluster of male flowers that Pollinated all of them. Prok usually had three to Four seeds per fruits. I don’t mind it at all. I used the seeds to start new rootstocks.
@Harbin, @tonyOmahaz5 anyone else growing or observing a mixed orchard of dv, I am ever curious about the earliest ripening varieties, can you share that information? Thank you!
Just found the following list of selection criteria that Jim Claypool used in his breeding program:
1.Reduce the long ripening period
2.Improve fruit size
3.Calyx holding to fruit when dropping from the tree
4.Increase the already wonderful flavor
5.Skin tough enough to hold fruit when it strikes ground
6.Better the color of skin or attractiveness
7.Reduce seed numbers
8.Eliminate black spots in fruit flesh
9.Improve pulp color & longevity when frozen
4 of these 9 traits (#3, #6, #8, and #9) seem to only matter as far as appearance and marketability, traits I’d be very willing to sacrifice, especially for the sake of scoring higher with #4 (taste) and #7 (few or no seeds). Sellable persimmons would be nice, but I wouldn’t want to sacrifice a persimmon that would be best for my own use for the sake of sellability traits. And I have a long enough season, that I’m not concerned about #1. Size (#2) matters to me mainly insofar as larger size tends to mean a better flesh-to-seed ratio, but if I could achieve a better flesh-to-seed ratio (especially complete seedlessness) with just average size I’d be very happy still. I would also guess that size correlates disadvantageously, especially on more mature taller trees, when it comes to the splat factor (#5, skin tough enough to hold fruit when it strikes the ground). It’s interesting that #5 is a trait that assumes the opposite of what Dax said would be a leading selection trait for him (being able to pick fruit from the tree without astringency). It seems there are clearly a lot of different ways that different people might choose their favorites, i.e. that “the best” is highly subjective, even when people agree about how to score each cultivar on any given trait. And then, of course, I’m sure how different cultivars score on the selection traits would vary significantly according to where they were grown.
@JesseS
For me meader is usually the earliest.
Followed by early golden
Then prok
This year I had a garretson that had its first crop and it had some ripe 2 weeks befor meader, They were good early, later I am having a hard time telling which ones are astringent, several still on trees.
Meader seemed late this year. And I am sill eating some.
In defense of meader , ( some people don’t like it.). I do like it.
I have a tree on the path to my garden, it’s often the first to ripen , and has a long harvest season.not a concentrated drop. So I find myself eating some often when I pass by. They are smaller than some other varietys.
With less mass they often don’t splatter like bigger softer varietys when they hit the ground.Mine are seedless here, good. Still a few hanging now.
Early golden seams to be a good producer here, shorter harvest season , so more to pick during that time.soft, big all gone now.
Prok is my favorite to eat, very large ,very soft, often splatters when it hits the ground.very good flavor ! Still a few hanging now.
Ruby : 2 trees had a bad early leaf drop for many years. Not much fruit,
This year I gave them some borax and a good dose of nitrogen,and no leaf drop ,and a decent crop of fruit.unfortunatly I don’t really like the fruit.not as sweet kind of odd texture, but still a lot on the trees, slowly ripening , maybe next year they be different ? It seems each year they are all a little different than the year before
My sweet lent is not ripe yet
As for@cousinfloyd question about different tast of pulp purée , well I’dont know, I pick what I can each day, and mix different varietys together.
There are differences in tast ,texture etc. of different varietys for sure,although hard to put to words.
My biggest challenge is to find the ones without astringency ,
I look for ones that have changed to a more golden translucent color.soft and slightly wrinkling .come off tree easily (just befor they rot ?) try to pick ground clean each day.so the ones on the ground have only been there 1 day. This part is not a perfect science,there are still astringent ones that slip through the grading .
All of my grafted persimmons here are essentially seedless, varys some by the year,
This year only 3 seeds out of “all I have picked”
Some years 1 seed in 10 fruit.
I do have a lot of wild 60 chromosomes trees around , fruit with seeds in the wild ones
A few persimmon pictures from this year. I think I agree with Lucky that most Americans taste about the same – although some seem to lose astringency better than others and that affects flavor. For me with a shorter growing season, ripening time is important. Prok ripens earliest of the Americans here in the Boston area. I have a few more that haven’t fruited yet, but so far Prok is the champ.
Not everything is fully ripe in these photos, but we had a strong wind/rain storm come through over the weekend that stripped all the persimmon trees of their leaves. We’ll see if the Americans can lose more of their astringency on the counter or in the freezer.
