I think you should go for it. I collected and used my pee on the garden for a few years (diluted with water), but we spend a fair amount of time out there and my wife and kids would complain about the smell of rotten pee lingering for days after an application. It was also a tough sell to get them to collect their liquid waste. So this year I am throwing out the golden plant supplement.
I was very inspired by @SkillCult 's articles on growing giant leeks, partly with the aid of pee:
My results were not as grand, but it did seem helpful.
Also, I second the recommendation to read the Humanure Handbook. My library system had it, and it was a good read. I came to the conclusion that composting my poo was totally doable and the right thing to do, but that it was going to be difficult to make it work in an urban setting. If I just had a little more space.
Using the graywater should be doable too. Anna Hess has a graywater wetland spot which she has posted about a number of times on her blog:
I’ll second (third) the Humanure book. Great resource. We’ve been using a composting toilet system (homemade) for forty years. We’re healthy, the orchard/garden is healthy. Good composting technique and common sense makes it a good and safe resource. It’s good I’ve expanded my orchard now because my older bearing trees don’t need any more manure of any kind. The greenstuff under the trees is plenty lush and hard enough to mow.
I just started using urine water this year thanks to Alan and others recommendations. Don’t know why I hadn’t thought of that before (though I’d used it as a mordant in some natural wool dying some years ago–works well). Good timing as I have a lot of new trees in a new not very fertile area. I think Alan had said he uses it 3-5 to 1 which is what I’ve been doing. But with the amount and frequency of rain we’ve had this year I’m sure whatever I’ve put on has been heavily diluted. I’ll be switching from orchard to garden later this month. We’re a bit later than most folks on the forum; my corn just barely made it to knee-high-by-the-4th-of-July (it’s a short variety!). A 5 gal bucket with a toilet seat (homemade or regular) in a pleasant convenient out-of-the-way spot makes it easy to gather, particulary for the female contingent. Helps to put some cleats on the bottom of the seat base so it can’t slide off. If odor is an issue you can use it fresh/often instead of letting it sit around.
A bucket under the sink is a simple and easy graywater “system”, temporary or long term, for watering or toilet flushing. If you have a family who is agreeable to managing it that way. I think you’ll find there is a lot of info out and about on graywater (and humanure, though less so) use. It’s been of interest in some circles for a real long time, and good new ideas/info pop up frequently. I think there are more country folks that utilize their ‘humanure’ (via the still common humble backyard outhouse) than you might think. It’s just not a common topic of conversation. It’s nice to have it brought up here and discussed in a helpful manner.
I’m on the fence on grey water because in my laundry I use a lot of boron at times and soaps, bleach etc. . Sometimes people use the argument that watering trees in Kansas gets faster growth which is true but it’s not necessarily better growth. I prefer deep roots that go to the water table as they should but when you water a little a lot of the time the trees develop shallow root systems that are not drought tolerant when our droughts come along. Fruit trees in Kansas really don’t need more growth in a season typically. I certainly don’t want mine to grow more than they did this year. Grey water and Urine might be things to look at in really dry areas like Utah, California, Nevada etc. . Parts of Kansas would certainly benefit from grey water which is the western portion of the state which is parched most of the time. This year they have water to swim in but this is unusual and they don’t like all this water much. They are reliant on dry conditions for much of what they do. I understand better than anyone how precious water is but there are better ways to get it sometimes when legal such as rain catchment systems. The way sewage is handled in the closest town is its processed in lagoons until it’s safe to use on farm fields. The sewage after it goes through a long period and proper treatment is then applied to corn fields typically. The corn is not for human consumption but rather animals and then eventually ofcourse we eat the animals. Something must be done with solids, urine, and grey water and I get that but the further we remove those things from our direct food supply the better. Urine salts build up on toilets and would build up in the irrigation system as mentioned. Many people get excited when they hear about free treated sewage from waste plants but I won’t use it on my hay fields ever and it’s not completely just the treated sewage I’m afraid of it’s the chemicals. Leads from manufacturing, medicines, cleaning agents, etc. wind up in that sewage being applied to " organic" farmers fields sometimes! Clearly you know what’s in your own waste so if you do plan to use it at some point later there is a process of treatment. I personally think cow manure is the best stuff ever and I use it for fertilizer, some added minerals, plain old water when needed but mostly I rely on rain. I have a guy pump my septic tank out for $100 every 5-10 years and send the waste down to the county to process safely in their lagoon. In my area, for the moment there are better ways to get our water. I have lived in houses where dishwater etc was used on flower gardens so I can completely appreciate using dish, laundry etc. grey water. Using grey water is very different from black water and I honestly think black water is on the dangerous side. People in China would disagree they use human wastes on fruit trees all the time. There are bathroom that are free there with the idea to get as much waste as possible to use on the trees and garden but I still disagree with the practice. Urine is not a huge deal in small quantities because let’s face it humans have been pissing on trees for thousands of years. I’m not the type to actively collect it because it smells bad but I won’t say much to anyone who does collect it because I grew up raising hogs and cows myself and have no room to talk about bad odors. Sometimes saving money can cost a lot of money but a simple grey water system might work out ok for you but adding urine into the equation is complicating your life. Think hard about black water I spend $100 every 5-10 years to get rid of it but how much of a processing system can I build for $100? Self reliance is important to me but I’m practical and saving $100 could cost you thousands but that’s just my 2 cents for what it’s worth. I don’t use a garbage disposal and all my peels , seeds, pits, rinds etc. get worked back into my gardens. You might be interested in aquaponics which uses fish wastes to raise strawberries and other fruits and vegetables but you get to eat the fish also.
Those are great and all, but let’s not neglect the more unusual fruits, like Maypoops (aka passiflora constipata), Mulmberries, or Poomegranates. Pyrus ussurinesis would also make a good rootstock.
I have well over a decade of time served using urine as a fertilizer and I’m a huge proponent. Here are a few points. Don’t mix the urine with grey water for use. It’s actually quite potent. Grey water will make a better everyday fertigant. Save the urine separately to have a convenient water soluble, fast acting fertilizer to use strategically as needed. It is fine if it’s fresh, or if it is sits around. It’s a fantastic fertilizer and for most people it will solve all of their nitrogen problems. Urine contains the great majority of the plant macronutrients that leave the human body, plus lots of minerals that are very valuable, and I think all soluble and pretty fast acting. Urine separation also makes it much easier to deal with the feces, since it is drier without the pee in there, easier to compost, less smelly etc.
Dilution of urine can be as low as 2:1 if you are watering in. It depends on how you are using it. Think of the dilution as a combination of the ratio at application and the water used to water it in immediately afterward. If you live on fairly free draining soil with significant rainfall, I doubt that salt build up will be an issue. I’ve never seen it. Worry about it when it happens.
My take on safety is that composting feces is an undertaking that should be taken seriously, while urine is just not really a big deal. Keep it off of the food you eat and you’re probably good. Just my opinion. Feces can always be buried just to be extra safe.
Very good info. I read your article and it was quite enlightening as well. Honestly i feel much more safe about using PEE as fertilizer and i am quite the prolific pee er…Over 50 will do that. I do believe the storing and directly applying method will be the preferred method just simply for control. Great info. Thank You…BTW I like your bit of an irreverent way of writing. Great info. but it just makes reading a little more fun. THNX
Another alternative would be to irrigate your lawn with grey water, and then take the clippings to the compost pile or use as mulch for the trees and garden. This would capture much of the nutrients. If you don’t have a lawn, you could plant a fast growing, water loving, biomass crop such as willow and irrigate it. You can cut willow and many other woody perennial crops to the ground every year (Google coppicing). Running waste through one or two biological processes prior to application on a food crop should reduce pathogen concerns. Stockpiling nutrients as compost or biomass mulch and applying seasonally would alleviate Alan’s concern regarding the timing of nitrogen application.
I personally would be less worried about fertilizing a fruit tree with human waste versus a vegetable garden crop (eg a root or leafy green crop). Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems more difficult for a pathogen to make its way up a tree and into a fruit vs superficial contamination of a leafy green…
I personally just pee on the compost pile when the urge strikes, and mow my leach field.
Keep in mind that the e coli outbreak and a few other outbreaks brought attention to the fact that the vast majority of fields harvested by migrant labor ends up having waste eliminated in it. Thoroughly rinse your veggies. It’s a risk, but it’s just Not A Big Deal™.
As a side note and probably way more than you want to know the guys that work down at the county say there sure are a lot of cantaloupe, tomatoes and such growing along the banks of the lagoon of the waste water treatment plant! Those must be some happy raccoons and such there! They can steal all the produce they want and no one will stop them!
haha yeah i’ve heard wastewater treatment guys talk about the amazing tomato plants with ripe red fruit growing in a logjam in the sewer on only a few hours of light a day. Thing is - nobody wants to try the tomatoes!
A local master gardener took me aside a few years ago and, as we looked over his very lush garden, he told me the secret is to use my urine to fertilize my garden. I’ve been following his advice ever since. Works great. Between this and my rabbit compost, I never have to use chemical fertilizers in my organic urban farm/orchard.
Although this sounds good in theory (as many things in life do), the deal breaker for me is the smell.
I visited a friend who raised chickens and turkeys not far from her house when I was considering this. As soon as we walked out the back door, ugh. I thought it was just my own sensitivitiy but I’ve changed enough diapers to desensitize me. I had a friend who thought goats were so cute and she and her husband decided to get some. Last time I saw her and asked about her cute goats she had a change of mind. She said she hates to go outside for the smell. Not everyone is sensitive to smells, but to me, why would you want the place where you live to smell like that? Thanks but I’d rather raise confederate jasmine.
Edit: And I forgot to mention the flies. Holy cow. BUT I have admitted to being the whimp-us maximus. To each his own.
What I learned from my own experience is it’s a matter of room with animals. When I was a kid farms had one cow per acre because it’s highly efficient but what I learned is 1 per acre and a half or 2 acres does not smell bad. Large cow, pig, and chicken lots have many animals in one spot which smells terrible. Pigs and chickens smell way worse than cows but if you put a sow and her pigs on 3-5 acres and raise the half dozen pigs until they are 200 pounds on mostly grass and a little grain there is little smell. Chicken coops I had smelled strong with ammonia because I used the recommended methods but if you have 4-5 hens and you clean the pen once a week and let them roam all over the smell is minimal. The reason why I don’t have farm animals is letting chickens, goats, cows, or even hogs roam all over is asking for uninvited guests for dinner and my animals would be the main course. So some would ask what’s different than ever and it’s time people stayed with heir goats all day In the old days and their dogs helped them but now no one can afford to do that. Farming like that is all but gone in this country and it’s going away in others. Since corporations took over farming we have seen everything change. The aged cow manure I buy does not smell bad and it’s very good fertilizer. It looks more like rich black dirt. I’ve got 20 more loads coming and since the farm is close by it’s $25 per load which is 5 bobcat bucket scoopfuls.
Interesting to know. I am planning on having a dozen chickens for eggs, a few goats for milk and cheese, I’ll have to do research to see what monthly production is on both to decide how many in the end, I’ll only need enough for me and the wife. Maybe grandkids too. I’m definitely going to have a pair of mules for trail riding. I think 8 or so acres should easily keep those animals. While some of my fruit trees will be inside the fencing. Just mulberry and crabapple and 3 pecan trees. I don’t see a problem there? Does anyone?
We raise cattle but with lots of room so the only smell happens in the spring after the thaw and then nadda. For the chickens, I use wood shavings as bedding, make sure it is not too deep and they seem to scratch it up looking for small pieces of grain, which keeps it turning and drying. IMO the only chicken poop that smells is the wet stuff.
I read that if you are using a composting can…the best thing to use is woodchips//for smell/breakdown time. I always thought cedar chips would work///but i think they found they didn’t work nearly as well (as least in the article i remember reading).
I wouldn’t be scared to use urine but i’d be watering it down.
The chickens should love eating the fallen mulberries, but I would hesitate to put any “nice” trees where chickens would be spending much time. They scratch so much I would worry about the long term health of the tree.
As for yield, our very average mail order birds (two black sex links and two americaunas) are two years old and lay on average 5 eggs a week each. As far as poop management goes (so I don’t go OT), the coop is generous (48) and they have two 1010 pens to alternate between. Lots of shavings in the coop and wood chips in the pens. Replacement layers and meat birds are raised in a mobile chicken tractor. When you open the coop door, there is an animal smell, but otherwise no smell at all. I hate poop smell! Lots of space and lots of carbon!
I also thought about suggesting Maypoops.