Like Golden Russet it can be a tremendous magnet for coddling moth and stinkbugs as well as wasps. However, if you live in a suburban neighborhood surrounded by relatively sterile lawns the equation can change in your favor.
The down side of 111 over M7 is that it can take longer to bear fruit and require more skill pruning. However, if a variety tends to be precocious this is less a problem. Trees that bear young are naturally self-dwarfing as a general rule. .I don’t have much experience with B118, but most of the newer, relatively vigorous rootstocks tend to bear crops sooner than 111. That said, in my own nursery I tend to favor 111. I use several tricks to encourage earlier production and 111 is a very dependable rootstock that can survive neglect and either too much or too little water than any other I can think of.
Apricots are not among the first species I recommend, on my own site in southern NY (not next to big water) they don’t work except against the southern walls of my house. Trees out in the open are extremely inconsistent bearers and often don’t grow well. However, sites better suited nearby work well if you accept the high risk of mortality. I no longer guarantee them when I sell trees of this species from my nursery.
@Aviva
Not sure you have read this thread about Hudson Golden Gem.
Look to be a shy bearer, have a biennial tendency and a yellow jacket magnet (happen to many sweet fruit). @BobVance who grows it in CT, showed his young HGG cracked, probably by rain. Knowing these issues going in will help you decide if you want a tree of HGG or graft it to another tree.
There are other russeted apples that people here like such as Ashmead’s Kernel, Egremont Russet, Golden Russet, Herefordshire Russet, Hoople’s Antique Gold, Roxbury Russet, Zabergau Reinette, etc. you can grow one tree and grafted all these to be your all-in-one russeted tree.
I like smaller rootstock for the reason @evilpaul mentioned. It is easier to manage and care for. I used to think I could grow apples organically. The idea ended when Marrsonina Leaf Blotch showed up.
You have not mentioned if or how much you are willing to spray your fruit trees. They are people who do:
no spray
organic spray
low impact spray (mostly organic but is willing to spray synthetic as needed)
synthetic spray
If you want no spray, you may want to re-think your love for stone fruit. Euro plums’s toughest issue is black knot as @JinMA mentioned. I grow mirabelles and other Euro. I used to have a graft of Mount Royal. It tasted fine but fruit is on a small size. Although it is supposed to be self-fertile, you will get a better yield if you graft other Euro that are pollen compatible to this tree.
Glad you do a lot of reading/researching before starting your orchard. It will help save you time and headache.
Thank you Alan,
I read a lot of your posts in the last few days and value your input and experience.
I am in town, although it’s Vermont so feels like suburban with yes mostly lawns with hostas, day lilies, hedges, etc. Quite a few people have raised beds here and a few young fruit trees. All is well tended so I hope disease pressure is relatively low.
I am still learning about rootstocks and would very much appreciate your thoughts. My preference would be for something very hardy, well anchored, and tolerant of fluctuating moisture level. Ideal apple tree for me would be about 14’ high by about 16’ canopy diameter. Is there a rootstock that with diligent pruning can be maintained at this size and support happy and productive tree? I am very willing to put in the work toward it. I also understand that cultivar selection affects vigor even on the same rootstock.
The spot I am considering for the apricot is just about 15’ SW of the house with good sunlight and protection. Chinese Sweet Pit is rated to zone 4 and late blooming, I am in 5b. Any thoughts? What varieties do you grow or help to manage successfully?
I have not settled on HGG yet. Every variety has its pros and cons so it’s a tough choice. If I go with the russeted variety as the main tree, definitely several varieties need to be grafted on it since most russets are triploids (at least in my research).
I just got back from Heirloom Apple Day at Scott farm and learned a few useful things there. I also bought few apples from this year’s harvest to try. They are Orleans Reinette, Ashmead’s Kernel, Black Oxford, Reine de Reinettes, Golden Russet, HGG, Ananas Reinettte,Karmjin de Sonneville, Roxbury Russet, Zabergau Reinette. They survived mid-May frost and a ton of rain.
In regards to spraying, I am leaning toward low impact. After speaking to several people who run orchards in Vermont, I understand organic is not viable option here. ‘Ecologically Grown’ seems to be the best practice possible here.
In re plums, how do your Mirabelles taste? I much prefer flavor over size in all fruit.
Forgot to answer about mirabelles. It is a sugar bomb, small in size but set tons of sweet fruit. It is straight forward sweetness, not complex like a gage plum. I like it. Everyone I have given it to like it.
Mirabelles. While it sets ton of fruit, you need to thin them off a lot. I did but not enough. It has gone biennial on me. So, both pomme and stone fruit can be biennial or have a “light year”.
The tree is about 8 years old. It is on a Marianna 2624, a somewhat dwarf rootstock. The positive is it bears fruit sooner than a Myrobalan rootstock. The negative is it tend to lean.
It is about8 ft tall and 10 ft wide. I bend branches, otherwise it could be over 10 ft tall by now. If I were to do it again, I would space the trees at 12 ft apart. I gave them only 8’ apart, too close to each other.
I have no first-hand experience planning an orchard but my natural inclination is to give a tree 3’ more than its mature canopy diameter is expected to be. That’s for light, air flow, ease of care. What are your thoughts?
A lot of stone fruit at Raintree Nursery seems to be on Marianna2624 or Krymsk1 (semi-dwarf). Do you have experience with both?
Most other online sources list Citation or Myrobalan or Myro29C as rootstock (standards?). Do you know anything about these?
it’s a lot of question, I know As you rightly pointed out earlier, research and due diligence at planning stage will help to save time and headache later on. Thank you again for willingness to help and sharing your knowledge!
If you want to do research info on this forum, there is a symbol of a looking glass on the top right corner of the page. That is our search function.
Click on the symbol and type key words in. For example black knot.
This is a serious, no cure issue of plums you need to know.
I had one cherry tree on krymsk1 and the tree died of mysterious dead. So I cannot comment on Krymsk 1. Several members here have plums on Myro.
I bought my trees from Raintree but be forewarned Raintree now is owned by a new owner. There have been some complaints abbot the new management.
Agree. MM111 produces a beautiful stately tree that is well anchored. Can be kept to 12-14 feet with judicious pruning. If you are inclined to graft new varieties rather than purchase new trees, it provides a lot of room and scaffolds to do so.
I have lamented on this forum about waiting for some MM111 to bear fruit, but have others which fruited in about 4-5 years and provided a significant amount of harvest.
In the unlikely event that fireblight strikes your tree, there is little you can do on a dwarf if the strike extends. I have found this to be problematic on dwarf pears primarily, but have had a few apples that had FB hit. The larger MM111 trees took it all in stride and the loss of limbs was negligible in the overall growth and shape of the tree.
I looked at your website and found an existing grafts spreadsheet. Very impressive!
Are all your apple trees on M111?
It looks like some were first grafted 2 years after planting, some up 8 years. I am curious as to why. Maybe trees were different age / size when first planted?
It relates to when I started to graft. I’m a relative newbie on grafting with my first ones in 2021 most of the trees were already established but some were still young or not yet planted. I’m not grafting on my first year planting, but might the second year depending on the trees structure.
No I have some dwarfs and some semi dwarf but rootstock not known, but the majority of apples are MM111.
If your soil is anything like mine and @hobilus’ then you have very heavy clay and that in itself will be somewhat dwarfing (maybe you can see it in the mature pears you have now)
As far as plums, I would reach out to Eric at Plum Hill in Charlotte VT @PlumHill or go to their website; he and his wife have a couple thousand plums nearby and it would be great to pick their brain. I think he also had some postings on what did best for them on this forum.
I have Mt Royal, Green Gage and Empress & Valor - the last 2 based on recommendations from @alan; I also plan on planting Castleton and BlueByrd next spring also; but my euro plums are young and planted either the summer before or this summer. We are 90 min from Montreal so Mt. Royal made some sense - lol.
I would suggest a more dwarfing rootstock on the apples - you might want to plant 4-5 dwarf apple trees on G.41 or some other similar rootstock and get a staggered crop of different varieties, esp if you like several different types; you can really pack dwarf trees in a high density way. There are pluses and minuses to dwarfing rootstocks but given you are space limited, it allows you to get more varieties and they will produce very quickly.
Apricots I have not grown and have heard from multiple people in VT they are hard
This is Eric’s list as it was over 5 years ago. I live elsewhere, in NYS and his ratings don’t necessarily apply to my region or palate.
Empress is certainly a good place to start though. Valor tends to be a bit sweeter in my orchard but those Empress plums are a delight in their own way. So big and so productive.
Production
Taste
Hardiness
Japanese Plums/hybrids
Production
Taste
Hardiness
Peaches
Production
Taste
Hardiness
Cherries
Production
Taste
Hardiness
Starks Blue
4
2
4
Shiro
5
2
4
Wisconsin Balmer
4
4
4
Kristen
4
3
3
Early Laxton
4
3
4
Ozark Premier
3
4
2
Intrepid
4
3
4
Starks Yellow
5
2
4
PP 6995
5
3
4
Comet de Kumetz
5
1
5
Reliance
3
2
4
Black Gold
3
4
2
Mt Royal
5
2
5
Methley
5
3
4
Hardired
3
5
3
White Gold
3
3
3
Fellenburg
5
4
4
Toka
4
3
4
Madison
Hudson
1
3
2
Long John
4
3
4
Kaga
4
3
4
Contender
Evans
5
3
5
Early Blue
5
2
5
Gracious
5
3
4
Millers Superhardy (not?)
Balantin
3
4
3
NY71
5
3
5
Surprise (may be Kaga)
4
3
4
Surecrop
Sure Fire
3
4
4
Castleton
5
3
5
Alderman
4
4
3
Red haven
General Hand
Purple Heart
5
5
3
Ranger
3
4
2
Early Transparent Gage
Early Costello
4
4
3
Polly
4
4
3
Ersinger
5
4
5
kahinta
5
3
4
Georgia Belle
3
3
2
Pearl
2
Ptistin #5
4
PF24C
Empress
5
5
5
Pembina
5
3
5
Seedlings
4
2
5
Alabaster
3
4
4
Pipestone
5
3
5
Cambridge Gage
Red heart
1
3
2
Imperial Epinese (not?)
Starks Delicious
4
3
4
Hungarian Red
3
3
4
Red Glow
3
2
4
Opal
5
4
4
Superior
4
4
5
Kirkes Blue
4
4
4
Marisopal
Peach Plum
3
3
4
Obil’naja
5
4
4
Jefferson (blue prune)
3
4
3
Rema
5
3
3
Ratings are 1-5, 1 is low, 5 is high
De Montford
4
4
4
Au Auburn
3
3
3
Schoolhouse
5
3
5
Rose Marie
4
5
3
Trees with no ratings have not produced enough for ratings
Mirabelle De Metz
3
4
3
Formosa
3
5
2
Mirabelle de Nancy
2
4
2
Sumumo
4
4
4
Hardiness is determined by how many trees have died, and how often they have not fruited due to weather
Thank you very much for your input, all very pertinent and valued.
I am not sure of my soil yet. I just sent a sample to UVM Ag Extension for testing. Digging shows it’s definitely not sandy. The pear trees are between 5 and 8 years old according to neighbors and are 13’ and 15’ high.
Thank you for pointing out Plum Hill. I will reach out to them. Their Mirabelles were delicious back in 2019. Your own selection of E plums is well curated. I wish you much success growing these babies.
If you know someone who grows apricot in VT, I’d love to connect with them. So far the only place I know is Scott Farm about 4 miles north of me.
What a beauty