Hello,
I am brand-new to this forum and am not sure about where to post my questions.
I finally have a property where I can grow fruit trees. It’s in SE corner of VT zone 5b I believe. The area for orchard is about 1800 sqft and has 2 mature pear trees that bore delicious fruit this year and one 10’x13’ unidentified fruit tree that’s been grafted but no sign of fruit. The area is about 30’x60’ and is SW of the house with lot’s of sun after 11am.
I love stone fruit and would like to add plums and apricot. My inclination is to add 3 semi-dwarf ofr semi-standard trees rather than more dwarfs. The idea of having larger trees with stronger root system and more spreading habit appeals to me. I would give them good spacing for air circulation, light and nutrition access. And, if I wanted more varieties later on, multi-grafting them would be the way to go.
I don’t have first-hand experience growing in this part of the country so my knowledge is from reading and research only. My choice for the 3 trees would be: Mount Royal Euro plum, Chinese Sweet Pit apricot, and 4-in-1 Mirabelle plum from Raintree. I would be grateful for any feedback re. suitability of these varieties for the area.
There is also an area with good sunlight where I could plant an apple tree. I am eyeing a Hudson’s Golden Gem on Bud 118 from Fedco, but intimidated by what I read about how long it takes for the tree to start bearing. This rootstock seems to be less problematic than M111 but still it’s a large size tree. It is possible for a complete novice to properly care for it and to shepherd it into adulthood? The payout would be delicious russet apples which I love, opportunity to graft other varieties on existing tree for cross-pollination and diversification. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts here.
Welcome to the forum! Here are some thoughts speaking as someone who is somewhat near to you both in region (Western Mass) and experience (I was a complete novice when I started about six years ago now):
Having the pear trees going is a great start!
If you post pictures of the unidentified tree, it’s likely that someone (probably not me) will be able to ID it for you.
With the plums and apricot, I’d say go for it, but recognize that both can be tricky in our region. (Stone fruit in general are tricky.) Plums are prone to a disease called black knot, which can be quite troublesome, and apricots are prone to just up and die on you. Late frosts can also make it dicey as to whether you will get fruit, especially with apricots. (I don’t grow plums or apricots myself, so this is second hand. Others may have thoughts about specific varieties.)
The big tree vs. small tree debate will probably never be resolved. There are pluses and minuses to both, and a lot of it comes down to situation and personal preference. That being said, I think it’s fair to say that a stronger rootstocks generally makes it more likely that a tree will survive and thrive, but it also makes it more work to take care of.
Apple trees are not super hard to grow in our area. I mean, yes, there are a variety of things that can go wrong that could cause you to lose a tree, but the odds overall are reasonably good. I have about forty apple trees - I think - and I’ve had serious problems with maybe six, of which only two have actually died. And this is with me being a novice who definitely made some beginner’s mistakes, and with the trees being dwarfs that tend to be a little more fragile. So, I think you should feel reasonably good about your chances of success.
I don’t really know the pros and cons of M111 vs. B118, but I haven’t heard that M111 is a particularly problematic rootstock. More of an old reliable in my understanding.
I have heard some reports that Hudson’s Golden Gem can be more difficult to grow in the East than it is in the West. It’s possible that it may be less difficult in your relatively northerly location.
It sounds like you’re aware of this, but just noting that you’ll want at least two non-triploid apple varieties for pollination. (Unless you have a nearby crabapple to provide pollen, which is entirely possible.)
Thank you for taking time to respond and being so encouraging! All good points here.
Regarding stone fruit susceptibility to black knot - do you know which varieties fare better in that regard?
I am just researching at this point, not jumping the gun to buy any trees yet. I started with getting some currants and gooseberries from EastHill Tree Farm in Plainfield and just planted them among existing pollinator perennials. Hopefully they wake up happy and start growing in spring.
Tomorrow is Heirloom Apple Day at Scott Farm nearby. Hopefully I get some useful info there and get to taste more varieties, although a lot of the crop sadly got clobbered by May 18th frost this year. Few years back I tried Hudson’s Golden Gem at Wellwood Orchards in Springfield, VT and got hooked. I plan to go there next week and see what survived the late frost this year.
Hi Avila,
Welcome to the forum, You might go thru this thread that addresses the topic, you can also use the hourglass search to look for other threads about your subject.
It appears that most Asian varieties are less susceptible, and another thought to consider is that you will have many more varieties of plums, pluots, apriums, and Plumcots that are cross pollinators among the Asian- Japanese varieties than if you go first with P domestica European plums. European plums will not cross pollinate other varieties. So if you are thinking about having only a few standard sized plum trees but you want good production, you stand a better chance of getting you best production of fruit with a number of cross pollinating varieties.
The other important point to remember is that to get two varieties to support each other with pollen, you need to match blossom schedules! This is true for most types of fruit trees. Unless you have about a couple weeks of matched blossom periods, cross pollination will not occur. So it’s much better to have a several varieties near each other to encourage pollination and greater fruit set.
I keep a blossom schedule each year for that purpose. You might locate a member near you who does this as well.
Here is my plum blossom schedule for this year for example:
2023 schedule: code FB = full blossom, BAL = Balloon, PF = petal fall
On 4/6/23:
Methley: FB
Beauty: BAL
Sweat treat: FB
Oblinaya: FB
Flavor king: BAL to FB
Satsuma: BAL to FB
Adara: FB
Luisa: BAL to FB
L3 : BAL to FB
Kuban comet: BAL to FB
L4: FB
4thStreet: FB
Black Splender: BAL
Ozark premiere: FB
Dapple Dandy: FB
Nadia: FB
Opal: FB
Friar: BAL
Geneva Mirabelle: BAL
Shiro: FB
Bills yellow plum: FB
I’d check how well Apricots do in your area. The fruit gets wiped out by late freezes in cooler areas fairly often in many places. Late blooming cultivars might be the only ones you’ll see fruit from more than once a decade. It looks like the Chinese one is later blooming.
The B118 and M111 are both going to produce large trees. Like you’ll need a 12’+ ladder to get at much of the fruit and probably won’t be able to spray without fancy equipment. They’re only 10-20% dwarfing, and a full sized tree could be 30’. The trees will also take several more years to start bearing. With dwarf trees you can keep them under 8’ and fit several more trees in the same space. I don’t see having to install a stake permanently, instead of temporarily, that big a deal personally.
Like Golden Russet it can be a tremendous magnet for coddling moth and stinkbugs as well as wasps. However, if you live in a suburban neighborhood surrounded by relatively sterile lawns the equation can change in your favor.
The down side of 111 over M7 is that it can take longer to bear fruit and require more skill pruning. However, if a variety tends to be precocious this is less a problem. Trees that bear young are naturally self-dwarfing as a general rule. .I don’t have much experience with B118, but most of the newer, relatively vigorous rootstocks tend to bear crops sooner than 111. That said, in my own nursery I tend to favor 111. I use several tricks to encourage earlier production and 111 is a very dependable rootstock that can survive neglect and either too much or too little water than any other I can think of.
Apricots are not among the first species I recommend, on my own site in southern NY (not next to big water) they don’t work except against the southern walls of my house. Trees out in the open are extremely inconsistent bearers and often don’t grow well. However, sites better suited nearby work well if you accept the high risk of mortality. I no longer guarantee them when I sell trees of this species from my nursery.
@Aviva
Not sure you have read this thread about Hudson Golden Gem.
Look to be a shy bearer, have a biennial tendency and a yellow jacket magnet (happen to many sweet fruit). @BobVance who grows it in CT, showed his young HGG cracked, probably by rain. Knowing these issues going in will help you decide if you want a tree of HGG or graft it to another tree.
There are other russeted apples that people here like such as Ashmead’s Kernel, Egremont Russet, Golden Russet, Herefordshire Russet, Hoople’s Antique Gold, Roxbury Russet, Zabergau Reinette, etc. you can grow one tree and grafted all these to be your all-in-one russeted tree.
I like smaller rootstock for the reason @evilpaul mentioned. It is easier to manage and care for. I used to think I could grow apples organically. The idea ended when Marrsonina Leaf Blotch showed up.
You have not mentioned if or how much you are willing to spray your fruit trees. They are people who do:
no spray
organic spray
low impact spray (mostly organic but is willing to spray synthetic as needed)
synthetic spray
If you want no spray, you may want to re-think your love for stone fruit. Euro plums’s toughest issue is black knot as @JinMA mentioned. I grow mirabelles and other Euro. I used to have a graft of Mount Royal. It tasted fine but fruit is on a small size. Although it is supposed to be self-fertile, you will get a better yield if you graft other Euro that are pollen compatible to this tree.
Glad you do a lot of reading/researching before starting your orchard. It will help save you time and headache.
Thank you Alan,
I read a lot of your posts in the last few days and value your input and experience.
I am in town, although it’s Vermont so feels like suburban with yes mostly lawns with hostas, day lilies, hedges, etc. Quite a few people have raised beds here and a few young fruit trees. All is well tended so I hope disease pressure is relatively low.
I am still learning about rootstocks and would very much appreciate your thoughts. My preference would be for something very hardy, well anchored, and tolerant of fluctuating moisture level. Ideal apple tree for me would be about 14’ high by about 16’ canopy diameter. Is there a rootstock that with diligent pruning can be maintained at this size and support happy and productive tree? I am very willing to put in the work toward it. I also understand that cultivar selection affects vigor even on the same rootstock.
The spot I am considering for the apricot is just about 15’ SW of the house with good sunlight and protection. Chinese Sweet Pit is rated to zone 4 and late blooming, I am in 5b. Any thoughts? What varieties do you grow or help to manage successfully?
I have not settled on HGG yet. Every variety has its pros and cons so it’s a tough choice. If I go with the russeted variety as the main tree, definitely several varieties need to be grafted on it since most russets are triploids (at least in my research).
I just got back from Heirloom Apple Day at Scott farm and learned a few useful things there. I also bought few apples from this year’s harvest to try. They are Orleans Reinette, Ashmead’s Kernel, Black Oxford, Reine de Reinettes, Golden Russet, HGG, Ananas Reinettte,Karmjin de Sonneville, Roxbury Russet, Zabergau Reinette. They survived mid-May frost and a ton of rain.
In regards to spraying, I am leaning toward low impact. After speaking to several people who run orchards in Vermont, I understand organic is not viable option here. ‘Ecologically Grown’ seems to be the best practice possible here.
In re plums, how do your Mirabelles taste? I much prefer flavor over size in all fruit.
Forgot to answer about mirabelles. It is a sugar bomb, small in size but set tons of sweet fruit. It is straight forward sweetness, not complex like a gage plum. I like it. Everyone I have given it to like it.
Mirabelles. While it sets ton of fruit, you need to thin them off a lot. I did but not enough. It has gone biennial on me. So, both pomme and stone fruit can be biennial or have a “light year”.
The tree is about 8 years old. It is on a Marianna 2624, a somewhat dwarf rootstock. The positive is it bears fruit sooner than a Myrobalan rootstock. The negative is it tend to lean.
It is about8 ft tall and 10 ft wide. I bend branches, otherwise it could be over 10 ft tall by now. If I were to do it again, I would space the trees at 12 ft apart. I gave them only 8’ apart, too close to each other.
I have no first-hand experience planning an orchard but my natural inclination is to give a tree 3’ more than its mature canopy diameter is expected to be. That’s for light, air flow, ease of care. What are your thoughts?
A lot of stone fruit at Raintree Nursery seems to be on Marianna2624 or Krymsk1 (semi-dwarf). Do you have experience with both?
Most other online sources list Citation or Myrobalan or Myro29C as rootstock (standards?). Do you know anything about these?
it’s a lot of question, I know As you rightly pointed out earlier, research and due diligence at planning stage will help to save time and headache later on. Thank you again for willingness to help and sharing your knowledge!
If you want to do research info on this forum, there is a symbol of a looking glass on the top right corner of the page. That is our search function.
Click on the symbol and type key words in. For example black knot.
This is a serious, no cure issue of plums you need to know.
I had one cherry tree on krymsk1 and the tree died of mysterious dead. So I cannot comment on Krymsk 1. Several members here have plums on Myro.
I bought my trees from Raintree but be forewarned Raintree now is owned by a new owner. There have been some complaints abbot the new management.
What a beauty