We need detailed genealogy for all varieties in the early golden family or otherwise.
U-20A Genealogy.pdf (386.4 KB)
I suppose someone has a bunch of details like that.
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Maybe so, but we are all struggling to find more than two varieties not related to EG. What about the Hershey or DEC varieties? What was used in them?
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DEC would be very iffy since he was following Claypoolās work. Old or uncommon varieties (there is a long list but maybe hard to source) are the best bet, and Hershey might fit if he didnāt use the old variety early golden 
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There are various documents from Claypool, like this one, which you can spend many a merry hour wandering through.
Claypool orchard 2005 (1).pdf (619.4 KB)
I first stumbled on this when I was trying to figure out what D-128a was when Robert sent me some scion. I grafted it based on the the info in this document, although Iām not sure @robert ever did. It is in a multi-graft tree so hopefully Iāll get to try it next year if Iām lucky. I should probably put D-128 in the same tree so I can compare them side by side, on the same rootstock in the same soil.
Iām not sure if the same exists for Lehman.
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Thanks Robert, you are right! Did you graft I-94A yourself?
No, I did not. I had a lot of scion and ran out of trees to graft to. Keep wanting more, but you can only eat so many. Iām going to put in one more late variety and claim Iām finished.
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Thanks for this. It is very useful. Prior to this, I could never find any good info on the genealogy of WS8-10 (Barbraās Blush). In particular, I had no idea that D-128 was one parent.
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@jrd51 As I know Golden Supreme is a wild selection from XIX century, but I donāt remember details about itās origin.
@Robert Hershey catalogs are still available online. He offers EG and Garretson but the rest of his plamts were wild selecions : Kitch, Rice, Lambert, Golden Supreme, Buhrman, Strasburg
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@jrd51 all monoecious selections have EG DNA. The only difference is the % of genes from other specimens. For example Killen and Garrentson are likly EG x Sp. Meader and Evelyn are Garretson x op (likley wild males). I suppose Szukis and William (father of Mike, George, G1, G2) are EG x wild males. Iām only not sure about Cambellāa selections NC10 is for sure seedling of EG but I donāt see the plant so itās hard to tell if itās from selfing or crossing, also itās probably a sibling of NC21. Apart from that, notes from Claypoolās breeding mention Marion as part of this group, but I had found some.old illustrations of it so Iām not certain about it.
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Monoecious is found also in Kaki as for example Taishu. It is a result of dosing effects from the sex determination system widely used in the plant kingdom. Early Golden is not unique.
@Fusion_power you are right but I mean pure D.virginiana. No one ever mention any other wild selection with this trait.
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Thanks. I was beginning to suspect as much but I donāt have the expertise to leap to that conclusion. Itās good to hear someone say it out loud.
So that suggests another question. As background, most of us as backyard growers (not breeders) try to avoid DV trees with male flowers because we donāt want seeds. An Early Golden offspring such as H-63A (Morris Burton x Early Golden) is prized in part specifically because it does not express the monoecious trait ā itās a pure female, at least phenotypically. But would it make sense for breeders to back-cross the best female Early Golden descendants (such as H-63A) with Early Golden (as a pollen donor) in order to generate additional monoecious varieties specifically for breeding?
As a partial list, we could try to produce monoecious offspring of these dioecious varieties:
- H-63A (Morris Burton x Early Golden)
- D-128 (Miller x G2)
- Barbraās Blush (D-128 x F-58)
- U-20A / Celebrity (D-128 x F-58)
- I-94 / Valene Beauty (Lena x Early Golden)
- H-120 (Juhl x George)
- H-118 (Juhl x George)
Then of course weād cross these females with their masculinized offspring and see what pops up.
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You donāt hear about it but it is part and parcel of the way hexaploid genetics work in persimmon. Back of the napkin calculation, about 1 in 100 female trees should produce some male flowers. It could be a higher percentage.
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@Fusion_power I heard someting about it. But if I remember correctly they sport male flowers in lower quantity that EG family members. Probably a few flowers for whole tree after a high stress.
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@jrd51 itās hard to get one right answer to this. I would say it depends on the breeders goals. I donāt know how many seedlings will give worse results due to increased inbreeding. Let me give you an example from my point of view. In Poland, we do not have access to wider genetic resources, so to avoid problems in the future, I gave up most of the improved varieties. Why ? The only pollinators are EG and Szukis. Therefore, in my opinion, the most sensible solution would be to cross all wild selections with EG and select only seedlings that produce male flowers. In such a situation, I can easily crossbreed in any combinations to maintain the relatedness at the level of 25%, which is relatively safe for the plants.
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I was just in Tennessee and we took a trip to Dollywood park in pegion forge. While I was sitting eating lunch in the middle of the park I could see persimmons in a tree so I had to check it out. Right beside Dollys cabin there was a persimmon tree with 1 1/2 - 2ā fruit on it. They was seedless and fits the description of the Dollywood persimmon correctly. Could this be the original Dollywood tree he gathered scions from? As I take it from reading the description is he found the tree while on a trip to Tennessee and the name would match up.
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I would say the original tree grow/grew in Calypoolās orchard as Dollywood is synonym of D-128.
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