Welcome to the forum, this is an awesome study. Thank you for sharing! I know we have many interested in nuts who would be happy to follow the results @Barkslip @Fusion_power
Do you have any photos of the seedlings in the grow tubes or of the current plantings that you are able to share?
Edit: I see your photo log link.
I do, yeah, as well as photos of the varying root morphologies produced in each depth of container. I measured root length as far as data collection, but this wasn’t adequate for capturing how different the groups were.
Will try to get photos posted soon.
Interesting research.
In the fall I bought some native chestnut seedlings … they had been in a flat of gro-mix
and no dividers … just scooped some up and potted 'em about 5 days later.
So far the one gallon pots appear ok…and the rootball reminded me more of blueberry than an oak or something.
Thanks for presenting your preliminary results here Anson!
Thanks, @BlueBerry, and way to get going on the native chestnuts. Hoping to get some American chestnuts on our farm eventually, but started with Chinese chestnuts as a better bet for commercial success. How old were the seedlings that you purchased? Signs of a taproot?
Happy to finally contribute after lurking on here for a year!
Yes, I think just one yr. old. Not over 8 inches or so.
Taproot…probably. As not dormant, I didn’t try to ‘bare-root’ them.
Seed source Letcher Co. KY.
I also have 4 seeds collected in Jackson Co. Ky near an old cemetery…they have spent the
cold months in vehicle getting frozen and all.
The Am Chestnut society has enquired about my participation…but I think it’s not a priority just an interest for me. I don’t have time to plant chestnuts and enjoy the harvest.
@fullforkfarm try Roottrapper pouches/bags. Maybe call them and ask what they would recommend however it seems to me and I have some at home here that the 15" tall x 7" *I think7, would be the way to grow/go.
These things make “radical” differences in development of something such that @BlueBerry discusses shifting up a flat full of seeds, a flat with 5" or taller side walls, and then dropping them immediately into a 15 x 7 Roottrapper and (I believe) in one season you might see something spectacular that you would never expect! Give it a try…
Dax
Yes first year 4-in screened bottom flats for a few months and then uppotted to
10 in open bottom Air pruning bed gives a tremendously robust rooting systemRobust indeed!
So when I uppotted to the deeper bed in the beginning of June the compost was still hot so the trees didn’t perform well… they actually got burned on top… the tallest was only about 18 in so the nice thing was I was able to store them a lot easier for winter. my hope is that when they get planted out this spring The Roots should really give them a great start. For comparison I did pick the best one from the 4-in flat and direct planted out so I could compare against the ones that were finished growing out in the beds. Next year and after.
A guy in Pennsylvania direct sows American persimmon (no special source, just a generic) in good soil that’s loamy & uses a broadfork, first. Pinches the soil before he puts the seed in and from about May when he plants and at at the end of the summer, he averages 1/2" caliper and has 1" caliper. And 3/4" of course, too. But he’s shown me where he’ll get a few that are 1".
He uses organics I’m sure. That’s his nature… so it would be manure or pelleted chicken or similar.
The other thing is a simple raised bed w/o any kind of root pruning that sits 24" off of the ground and any type of “soil” fill may be used: with or w/o fertilizer; heavy 99cent top soil; peat-based, soil mixtures; it doesn’t matter. This was a university study at one of the Pecan Texas College/Universities that performed it. They said, ‘white rubber mulch’ and 24" of raised bed sown with pecan seed would produce (3-4’) seedlings in one season. I’m trying to remember but they all were 3/8ths or better… I’m certainly sure, that-much… the article for no-reason was removed and I saved it as a bookmark. Now when I find ‘special information’ like that, I snipping tool any of these and save them on Microsoft Word. That was a very informative study. I’ve reproduced it with pecans, too…
I’ve been growing in 30" Treepots for 18-months. I wanted Roottrappers, but I had already built a table for occupying 30" tall pots. I custom built my table for this. My thought was to grow a seedling and produce trees that can be 5 or 6 feet tall due to the length a tap-root would be able to continue too…
I decided recently that it would’ve been in my best interest to cut the pots off to 16". It’s not coincidental that you’re having success, your most-success, at 15" or believe that will prove the winner later, in a field-growing-situation. I could just see it in my mind after having raised seedlings of many things; I’ve grown in 5.5" x 2 3/8" Anderson Tree Band Pots starting 20-years ago and have tried all the Stuewe Treepot sizes and the 12.5 or 12" isn’t enough and the next thing is 30". I thought to myself before I decided on 16" that they would have an incredible Market for a pot that’s 20" - then eventually after having thought about it for another couple of weeks, I decided to “myself” that’s too much container and that 16 would be better.
I’ve grown in pots that have holes on the sides that are 12" tall and 5" across that taper to probably 3.5" or so. I’ve grown in Rootmaker square gallons; I can’t not tell you - what I haven’t already tried…
Raised beds I concluded were the best for ease of “lifting” seedlings…
Once the first row next to (a) wall, (maybe the second row) is lifted with a shovel, the rest of the work is wiggling the seedlings out of the media with your arms inside the soil and feeling around with your hands, or, some simply “lift up.” …they’re really simple to remove.
I just direct sow seed in the ground now. For anyone who cares, hardwood trees and shrubs grow their taproot where they “know” they won’t die during year one as long as they get water until mid-July. It’s programmed into hardwood-plants. So if you’re lazy and only water until mid-July, you can grow a tree that will likely outlive yourself. …since I do it mostly for grafting in place (nut trees) (persimmons) but it could be anything, it shaves years off of a potted tree trying to establish a taproot; however, what you see above from @Yarg is tremendous. It’s not nearly as good as Roottrapper believe it or not, but it’s SOMETHING SPECIAL he’s pulling off there. Roottrappers make roots just like @Yarg with the addition of fine hairs that are so dense that it looks like a wool scrubbing pad “dense” mat of fibrous material hanging from a million strings of spaghetti, just like Yarg’s roots.
It’s gone though. The link after it stopped working still sent me to the Texas University but had a message that stated such as ‘this link no longer is available’…
I appreciate your efforts to learned me something new, however.
Yes, that is the general concept.
The ones I got didn’t come from a flat that deep nor have that robust a root system…still the similarity is present. Looks about the same size. One year plant?
Yes I started seed in 4-in flats first week of April, up potted first week of June and uprooted them November 18th.
@Barkslip I would love to know more details of that guy in PA growing persimmon to 1/2"-1" caliper in one summer. That would be great to replicate. Do you know how far apart he planted them?
I’m going to start growing some Hexaploids from Cliff this year. Got the seed today. It will be my first experience growing persimmons. I’m going to direct seed some and start some in air pruning trays. Then move up to bigger air pruning containers. Then root trappers at the end of summer.
Also, just to make sure I understood Cliff correctly. He said they are already stratified at this point so all I have to do is keep them in the refrigerator until time to plant & I should be good to go correct?
Can you explain, or point me toward a good resource, to understand hexaploids, etc. @barkslip?
I purchased Prok x Szukis crosses from Cliff in the fall that I’ll be starting up this way here in Maine. Looking forward to getting them going.
Hi @October1 to your question regarding broadfork, he’d put manure on the ground at Fall then the next spring he’d use his broadfork and the natural spaces on the tool are where the holes are. My broadfork has tines about 4-6" apart? I’d have to go measure. So he steps on it and presses it all the way to the end of the fork tines and probably swishes some loose soil back into the holes if it’s available and he would pinch the soil together at the top of the hole(s) whereas a seed will be direct sown after frost. So, to keep your seeds that Cliff sent ready and since there’s nothing to do but put them in your refrigerator (not freezer ever) and plant to pots or direct sow in place where you want a tree.
@fullforkfarm No I can’t unfortunately, I’m sorry. I can start you at a place on a thread that is fascinating that has taken up weeks and weeks of my time, recently; since, I’m going into the breeding persimmons.
I had to have this guy here explain to me what genes are and chromosomes (just a weeks ago.) I didn’t even know basically biology.
Dax
