Wow lots of interesting information here. Thank you everyone for all of it! It’s interesting how these apples have “personalities” that the grower gets to know and can share with others who want to grow it too. Lots of stuff you can’t find in books or growers catalogs.
Wow, you got a lot of responses
disclaimer. I have no mature espalier myself. I did however reasearch it heavily and talk to people and saw ther older espaliers. And am growing/grafting my own. So always compare my information/theory to people with actual long term experiance.
What soil do you have?
Also in what country/continent or climate are you? we just know your zone 5.
Stake
And im sorry to be the bearer of bad news. But virtually all espalier tree’s need to be staked in some form or other. At least until they get really old (10+ years at least)
This depends on many factors. But most espaliers act like a “kite” and collect wind. They are also usualy smaller. Which means the rootsystem is smaller to.
And even if your rootstock did not need the stake to avoid tree “leaning”
Your verticals on the dubble U would likely bend or brake from fruitload.
Due to limited long thick side branches, your verticals stay “thinner” for longer. Thus making some form of staking nessasery for a long time.
The tip bearing
I was amazed however, when walking trough a friends “collection” orchard of the amount of spurs on apples known for tip bearing. There are definitly less spurs on tip bearers, but most still seem to form some spurs. It’s not only spur or only tip. Most seems somewhere inbetween. I plan to experiment myself with summer (lorrete) pruning on some tip bearer espaliers. To see if i can get a worthwhile amount of spurs.
Even if this is possible though your not making it easy on yourself by wanting a tip bearer apple on vigerous rootstock for a smal espalier form.
What to do with your current tree.
Wide espalier
We know how high (under 6 feet) your espalier can get.
And that it has a vigerous rootstock.
However you could give it enough room in the width i gues.
By making a horizontal palmet.
You grow the first 2 horizontals out for roughly 1-2 years. Then graft another less vigerous variety above and continue. Might be an good option to still keep some of your choosen variety. But also gives you a chance to keep the tree more managable.
A low vigour variety (like ananas reinette) will also keep your MM111 smaller. Still i would give it roughly ~10 feet width if your keeping it under 6 feet high.
Have your first “floor” of golden russet at 16" of ground
Mabey start your second floor at 40" of ground. And then build a floor every 12-16"
Im suggesting keeping more space between the first and 2e floor to keep some extra room for the tip bearing tendency’s of your golden russet first floor.
Use decreasing vigor spur bearers for the next floors. With the lowest vigor variety on top.
Frankentree
Just like JinMA i think your current tree might be an exelet option for a larger frankentree if you got the room for that somehwere ofcourse.
If you want the dubble U and keep it lower than 6 feet
I would recomend buying a rootstock and grafting a tree with a spur bearing average or low vigour variety. (or if going high vigour variety, gow smaller size rootstock, like M27)
Depending on soil and growing conditions i would use a rootstock around the M9 size. (M27 for verry good clay soil and growing conditions) (M9 for the average)(M26 for verry sandy soil and dryer growing conditions) (maybe MM106 if your growing in beach sand with the lowest vigour variety grafted)
It would require an encyclopedia because apples are the most diverse important fruit species on the planet. It is their complicated DNA that makes them so amenable to the genetic manipulation that is plant breeding. The world explosion of apple varieties really occured in the earlier U.S., when settlers in new territories relied on seedlings for their apples and apples were an essential source of alcohol and sugar on the small farms they created. They relied on apples that were best for drying, other types best for making “hard” cider, the best for preserving as sauce or apple butter and so on. When an exceptional variety showed up in an orchard it might become an important regional variety as scion wood would be shared and spread. Thousands of named varieties were born during the great Euro-American expansion in the U.S.
The excellent American horticultural and food essayist, Michael Poulin, tells the story well in his book, “The Botany of Desire”, a must read for all serious gardeners, in my book.
I’m in the US working with clay soil that has poor drainage and intermittently has standing water in the spring. I have another tree on M111 at the same site that has done well under these circumstances. I do have the room for a wider espalier but not taller so the horizontal palmettes idea works. I understand they will need support for the first 8-10 years but my hope was to be able to remove the support when it is well anchored (all part of a loooong term plan) but a horizontal espalier would need support for longer, which is fine. I like the idea of using this golden russet as an interstem of sorts, and would probably need more practice with grafting to make that work, but I will have a few years to do that. Where does one find out how vigorous a scion is? This isn’t something I have had to consider prior to this.
Alan, thanks for the book recommendation! I will check it out. Thanks again everyone for the help!
Im in the EU. so i might be wise to wait for some-one with US espalier experiance befor following my advise.
I dunno how much it would differ. But i somtimes see quite the difference between advise and data between the US and EU fruit growing.
Rootstock and interstem
With your souil MM111 sounds like a good choice. You could interstem it with a 4-12 inch piece of B9, M9 or even M27. This would dwarf it, longer interstem=more dwarf. Depending on interstem length you should be able to get roughly M26 size. But still have the MM111 roots. And this would be a way more manageble size for espaliers.
Scion vigor
Most sources i will link go to a single (the same) apple variety. But the websites lists way more varieties. Use the search fungction on each website.
Is an american source. I think i would trust this most for your situation.
looking under “fruit ID” just under the name of the variety. And scrolling down to “growing”
suplementary table 2. Will download sheet. You can find the ploidy here of 600 apple varieties. 3n = triploid, almost always a stronger grower. 2n is diploid.
Triploids canot fertilize themselfs, or other apples. And thus need a diploid apple nearby with the same flowering time.
Usualy also lists vigor of the tree.
use google translate for these.
https://library.wur.nl/speccol/fruitvrij/aepfel/Aepf1/Ae027.htm
https://library.wur.nl/speccol/fruithof/fruit/App/Tekst/AppT03.htm
different sources different vigors
As you might notice, different sources list different vigors. It is hard to judge which source matches your situation most. But in the end it doesen’t matter that much. As long as your not putting a really low vigor variety at the bottom and a triploid super vigerous in the top. you can balance them by pruning. It is however nice, where you can find it. To place them in order of decreasing vigor bottom to top of the espalier. (starting botom most vigerous, ending top least vigerous)
Btw i just picked ananas reinette as an example because i mentioned it earlier as an example. Does not mean that would be a perfect or even good apple for your situation. I dunno how it would work for you.
Links, links and some more links
most of these links i also mentioned in this topic.
It also contains a lot of links of what i consider to be good sources to use when learning to graft. Might be worth checking them out. Their in the “links” section of the topic.
Wow Oscar!! What a treasure trove of information!! Thank you for sharing your favorite sites with me! Quite a lot of information to delve through here but I’ll have a lot of time this weekend. When you do an interstem, do you graft when all three are dormant? Or graft two one year and then graft to the third the next when the first two heal? Thanks for your help!
i graft my interstem when dormant.
I buy a MM111 rootstock. Cut it of low.
Buy a B9/M9 rootstock, cut of a ~10-12 inch piece without the roots that i Whip and Tongue (W&T) graft to the root part of the MM111. i’m left with the non rooted MM111 part which i can try and make cuttings off, and a small B9/M9 rootstock with roots which i can graft a scion to.
On the B9/M9 grafted to the MM111 rootstock, i chip bud 2 buds like i showed on earlier pictures of my choosen variety. And i keep braking of all smal buds on the M9/B9.
Because i ran late last year. (and this year)
I also graft a few where the B9/M9 and MM111 already started to brake buds or had a small leaf or 2. I broke of all the buds and leaves on those interstems.
The later grafted ones all took and survived. They did grew a little less than the earlier fully dormant ones. Could be coincidence but i think they took a hit from not being dormant.
i always make sure the scion variety is fully dormant, especially when chip budding. This is easier since the scion twig fits in my fridge. The rootstocks don’t.
There is also a topic on this forum about non dormant grafting. I would however advise the following for newer grafters.
-graft when everything is dormant,
-or graft when only the rootstock part with roots is no longer dormant, but everything you graft onto that is still dormant.
There is also summer chip budding. but you usualy do that around august september. Depending on climate.
ps: you can also graft them seperatly in 2 years. There is no problem with that if your patiant.
Great information thanks! I will try the interstem suggestions next year and see how it goes. What do you suppose a beginners success rate is the first year? Just so I know how many attempts to make. Thank you again! What a great forum here!
Beginners success for interstems?
If you do the interstem in 2 years (first graft B9 on MM111, next year your variety) it’s the same as any other graft the first year, and than again the second year.
Grafting both in the same year is almost the same. You just have to make sure you bind the graft tight before working on the 2e one. So you don’t move it while making your second graft. i think i did 20 interstems last year. 5 of them, 1 chip did not grow. but all 20 took both varieties (interstem and eventual variety) in 1 go.
since you have a year though. Id recoment getting a good grafting knife now. And just practise in summer. (practise on some spare pruning wood. But also practise by doing some summer grafts. End of summer you can see if the summer grafts took. and then you have a rough idea of how easy it is
Awesome ideas Oscar! I’ll practice a bit this summer and give myself some room for some failures next spring. Thanks again for your help!