clarkinks. I’m having an hard time interpreting your measurements in your example.
I can find conversion charts for bushel to liters. But that’s volume… I’m more used to fruits on weight base not volume.
without solving the conversion puzzle.
I think you discount the fact that the super tall tree, trows more shade than the dwarf tree. And thus even though the footprint of the tal pear tree is small. The surface area of shade (where other tree’s won’t produce) is quite large. And thus if you where to plant an acre of those full size tree’s and plant an acre of dwarf tree’s. The dwarf tree’s acre would yield more.
This can be climate and growing system dependent though.
In my country it is well documented that the yield per acre more than dubbled with the switch to dwarf rootstocks and high intensity planting (1200 apple trees per acre.(3000/ha) or 800- 1000 pear trees per acre (2000-2500/ha)
And there are still some standard tree plantings. But they lag behind in yield/surface area.
I have found there is more than one type of shade when growing trees or plants at least where I live. I have found that my trees will grow the same as another tree under a spruce tree but kept behind a fence the fence will prohibit the growing as fast. Under a fence and a spruce the tree will die.
To maximize production per surface area.
You have to efficiently use the solar energy that falls down on that surface area by
-Little to no self shading.
-Little sunlight hitting the ground instead of tree leaves.
Generally these things are easier to do with rows of dwarf apples tree’s than with full sized trees.
The multi leader. Or 2D fruiting wall concepts take these things (and thus yield) to the extreme.
They have practically no self shading. And Let very little sunlight hit the ground instead of the trees.
Another thing is, full size tree’s tend to produce more weight in wood/twigs than dwarfs. Thus not needing support. The energy needed for that wood can’t be spend on fruit. Such as dwarf trees do. (but those do need support)
I’m still not used to pears in volume (liters) How many kg is in 1 liter or gallon of pears? (or bushel)
Lets go back to the home orchardist for a minute. They have a 8 feet area 40 feet long to plant pears. Think it would be safe to say standards in that situation will always yield more. They need to go up not out! The neighbors might not like the shade being cast on them in that example. Here is an example of a row of my standard pear trees. Kansas has lots of sun so keep in mind it is not Europe where the skies are overcast frequently. It is drier here than some places with about 34" annual rainfall. Spring rains and fall rains are most of that moisture.
even though i wish full sized roots(tock) where the future. For environmental reasons. (larger rootsystem needs less fertilizations and irrigation and thus better environmental impact)
i think dwarf or semi dwarf tree’s will become standard more and more. because of
-faster yield (less years till fruit production from planting)
-easier/cheaper picking/pruning (no ladders etc)
-easier to maximise light interception/minimize shading
-easier to mechanize (Most experimental apple picking machines are tested on 2D fruit wall orchards)
-easier to colour fruit (less self shading is also less shading of fruit)
-easier to adapt to market. If a new variety starts to produce a full harvest after 5 years (dwarf) instead of first fruit after 8 years (full size) you can more easily maximise profit.
Regrafting a tree to a new variety to production goes faster for dwarfs than full sized tree’s.
-short term vs long term risk in investment. Dwarf tree’s that start paying back the investment after a few years are more short term than standard tree’s that need investment for 8+ years before any returns. Even though their unproductive years compared to productive years are more favorable at full age (thus after 80-100 years)
that’s not to say that full sized tree’s don’t have advantages. Like
-no need for support
-larger rootsystem, and less need for fertilizations and irrigation
-longer lifespans
-more resilient
it’s just that those advantages don’t weigh as much as the dwarf advantages in most commercial operations. For backyard growers or people with limited irrigation or harsh growing conditions that might be completely different.
This thread gives an idea of the luxury of owning standard trees A windfall of windfalls! .The wealth of fruit is enormous. There are even enough for deer. These trees were picked until noone wanted more! The animals eat good here. 6 bushels of fruit per tree is not an exaggeration. Another trick is to face some rows east west instead of north south. Some rows face north and south. The sun rises in the east sets in the west. In this way rows are not ever really shading other rows completely.
Good for you and everyone else including the deer. I’ll bet you’ve even got a few fat mice from all that bounty. But I doubt they appreciate you like we do.
Funny and unfortunate thing is pears are the hardest fruit for me to digest. But I still grow a few because along with apples they are the only large fruits that make a crop most years.
I think they have figured out that the rich neighborhoods are more likely to have fruit trees. Someone did a news story on 9 news a few years ago on it and how this organization was trying to fix it by offering trees for something like 10 or 15 dollars depending on income. With the factor of needing to own land to really grow fruit trees and trees possibly getting looted in poor areas I see how they can be seen as a luxury. Plus you spend between 30-110 dollars for a good tree online. My 4 in 1 mirabelle trees were 110, my 4 in 1 pluots were 60 on sale but prices increased to 110 for those ordering later on, my pears, cherries etc. from Raintree around 60, my peaches, pawpaw, apples etc. from One Green World, Bay Laurel and Burnt Ridge between 30-50 dollars. As someone making 25 dollars 30-50 dollars is not much for me but I know it was a lot when I was working at Home Depot for 11 dollars a hour. It is one of those situations where it is hard to get the trees and get them going for most people but once they are going you save a bunch of money.
The founding fathers of this country like Thomas Jefferson i see as important men. They believed in the American dream for everyone i think. All these years later it is a priveledge from my perspective to eat the same fruit he considered good! Seckel Pear | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello
"Thomas Jefferson planted a ‘Seckel Pear’ at Monticello in 1807, and said that this variety “exceeded anything I have tasted since I left France, and equalled any pear I had seen there.” A.J. Downing, America’s foremost nineteenth-century pomologist, agreed, saying “We do not hesitate to pronounce this American pear the richest and most exquisitely flavored variety known. In its highly concentrated, spicy and honied flavor, it is not equaled by any European variety. When we add that the tree is the healthiest and hardiest of all pear trees, it is easy to see that we consider no garden complete without it. It is believed to have originated on a farm outside of Philadelphia.”
The fruit of the Seckel Pear ripens in early fall, with its skin turning to dull yellowish-brown with a russet red cheek. Its flesh is whitish, buttery, very juicy and melting, with a spicy flavor and aroma."
Years later my seckle is hopefully the same one described.
I don’t really have a horse in this race, but some of the comments conjured a memory. I am now 71 years old. One day roughly 50 years ago, after dinner at my parents’ house, my immigrant grandfather and I went for a walk. After walking 1/3 mile or so, we noticed a mature pear tree, growing on the side of the road, loaded with ripe fruit. No doubt it was a legacy of the farm that once existed there. We picked a big bag full.
The tree is still there today. It must be at least 90 years old.
I now live 150 miles away. But there is another ancient pear tree growing in a field across the street. It is totally untended, again no doubt a relic of a past farm. There’s a Community Garden that operates 50 yards away, where volunteers grow vegetables for a local food bank. The pear tree is so inconspicuous that I had to point it out to the managers of the farm so that they could pick pears as well. So in early November each year, I pick a big bag of fruit and the Community Garden folks get the rest. And the deer.
My point (agreeing with a writer above) is just that a vigorous standard pear tree is a resource that lasts generations.
Love your story about you and your grandfather. Think you might really enjoy this thread Napoleon’s army planted pear trees fact or fiction? .To be able to see the pears Napoleons army planted is another priveledge. The video is very good Scenes from a village 33 - Napoleon's pear trees (2014) on Vimeo .Standard pears can live hundreds of years. This is from another thread i posted years ago
"I’m not sure this is a pear tree but this is what it said and what it looked like.
" Workers cut a tree, 1800s
Believe it or not, this vintage photo of working on the upper branches of trees is real! They were pruning it to bear more fruits and continue growing. For children reading this, please don’t try it at home. Those men may look cool trimming trees up there, but they were putting their lives on the line. Besides, they were professionals so they knew what they were doing." "
I have a standard seckle pear from Stark Bros. I forget the price but it was something like 19 or 30 something dollars for the super large size because of the sale they were having. I got some pretty good deals at Stark Bros last year that I am not seeing this year. That standard size seckle for that amount and purple passion asparagus at 3 dollars for 10. Both purple passion and seckle are super good cultivars from what I read so I am surprised they had them in stock and were selling them at that price.
I would argue I have quite the collection of pears at this point. Warren on standard and OHxF 87, Magness on standard and OHXF 87, Comice on Standard and OHXF 87, Seckle on standard and Ayers pear on OHXF 87. I have a rogue red coming next year that I asked cummins to graft for me in 2022.
About 30 years ago, I wrote an article about inter and intra-tree shading for pecan trees. The angle of the sun changes over time which means shading effects vary day by day and hour by hour as the sun traverses the sky. Analyzed for rows planted east-west, the end result is that shading is close to the same for trees planted north-south. The optimum layout depends on when the tree matures fruit. For pecan, heaviest photosynthate drain is during September therefore optimum layout is to have as little inter-tree shading in September as possible. This can be calculated as a function of distance between trees and size of trees according to the layout they are planted on. For most trees, that optimum is a northeast to southwest row of trees such that trees in the row are close while rows of trees are further apart.
Other limiting factors are water availability, soil nutrient status, and competition from any weeds, grass in particular is bad.
Commercially, nobody in their right mind is going to plant anything but dwarf apple trees. Production per acre/hectare up to quadruples what can be done with standard size trees. You can’t win the argument that standard trees are more productive. In a commercial setting, standard trees lose out for a multitude of reasons, production is arguably the most important.
Make sure you understand what your signing up for. Consider in my soil standard pear trees never have got over 30 feet. As people plant and replace orchards every 15 years i will keep in mind that i can’t when the argument when i dont lose production on the trees 2x already i planted 30+ years ago. Every time their dwarfs die they are set back 3-5 years if they are non drought years. Then they fight deer, rabbits, water shortages, weather extremes, and all the things that go along with their perfect system while they try establishing new orchards. There is a reason i’m doing well with a pear orchard in Kansas. Though it might not work for you in your area dont knock it until you see the results in my area. When trees are removed and added years of work establishing a system is lost. That is work better spent picking pears rather than people standing around with shovels. The way commercial orchards make money doing it is by very expensive equipment. It is not sustainable the amount of water it takes in most regions to irrigate their dwarf trees. Like most modern agriculture people are often penny wise and pound foolish.
This is the breakdown
“Tree Density Guide
Semi-dwarf orchards today have densities
of 123-311 trees per acre at spacings of
16’ x 22’ to 10’ x 14’.
Dwarf orchards are planted with spacings
as tight as 2’ x 10’, but more commonly
4’ x 14’ and up to 7’ x 16’ for densities of
388-777 trees per acre.
Standard orchards are no longer planted
because they take too long to produce.
Today, high density means more than 500
trees to the acre and will exceed 1000+ with
multi row systems.
TREES 43,560 = ACRES L x W”
Every 1 acre inch of orchard uses 27,000 gallons of water every few days x 2 or 3 times. To simulate 2" rainfall they water 54,000 gallons of water every few days per acre.
" Water
You should only plant fruit trees where you have a water source for irrigation during the dry summer. Fruit trees, especially during the first four to five years, require watering to make good growth. When watering fruit trees, you should give them a deep soak that will penetrate several feet into the soil. The amount of water to do this will vary depending on the type of soil you have and the temperature and wind extremes at your site.
When watering fruit trees, you should give them a deep soak that will penetrate several feet into the soil.
Sandy soil will require more frequent watering than clay soil, but less water with each soaking. Clay soil will require more water with each soaking, but not as frequent as sandy soil. In general fruit trees like a deep soak (2–3 inches of water) every 10–14 days on sandy soil and every 15–20 days on clay soil. In western Oregon, fruit trees need to be watered starting in mid-June and ending in late September."
" Wildlife protection
Many wild animals will feast on your trees and their crops if not protected. Deer are usually the greatest pests of fruit trees. If you do not fence in your yard or put wire (fence) hoops around each tree, deer will destroy them.
Make wire fences 6–8 feet tall to keep out deer.
When using wire fences, you need to make them 6–8 feet tall to be effective. Narrow wire mesh on the lower two feet of your wire fence will keep out rabbits. Voles can be a problem if you allow tall grass to grow up to the trunks of the trees, providing shelter from predators. Keep grass cover mowed and deep mulch away from tree trunks to prevent vole feeding on bark. Birds and raccoons are attracted to the fruit. The only long-term solution to keeping them away from the crop is to cover trees with netting."
This section that followed the last two makes me smile. Be ready to do some serious pruning every year for espalier.
" Planting pattern
Most homeowners are interested in planning how to maximize their fruit production from a few trees since they do not have large plots for an orchard. This can be done by using dwarfing rootstocks to increase tree numbers, training fruit trees into hedgerows, training espalier plants next to their homes or grafting many varieties on to one tree. Give even dwarf trees at least 5 feet space between other trees to maintain some vigor and health."
In addition every 15 -20 years the soil will need prepared for the dwarfs that will need replanting.
Some dwarfs are lucky to make it 7-10 years. This argument between standards and dwarfs was fought in my family when i was still a child. My mom had dwarf fruit trees that died. My uncle who was a professional orchardist tried various things and because of labor constraints went long term with semi dwarfs which are about like standards in my soil. He pruned the tops down every year to 20 feet maximum. It is worth mentioning soil plays a role.
“Establishing a high-density orchard is costly. It is important to do it the right way, because you get only one chance. Once the orchard is established, it is difficult and costly to correct soil problems in later years.”
The idea of a high density orchard is to effectively reduce roots and focus on fruit. Consider what that actually means
Planting rows north south generally yields the best overall results if your planting many acres of orchard. In my orchard i do blocks of both. Most are north south per recommendation. There is no doubt shading can be a big problem in any orchard. My orchard is very comfortable to easily drive through but very high density you can barely walk through to prune.
Ultimately none of it is about production alone with an orchard under a thousand acres it is about quality not quantity. The smaller the orchard the higher the quality of fruit must be. In part of Colorado as an example they sell the highest price peaches around because of their unique climate Can High Density Orchards Yield More Crop per Drop? – Sustainability
The only actual dwarf pears are actually quince or other non pear rootstocks.
In many areas like New York small orchards are mostly only grown by the priveledged few who succeeded by skill and luck. @alan has made a successful business by taking care of these orchards.
