Fruit Tree Planting Depth Question

[oscar]

@NewOrchardist

My question is, do you folks agree? How deep do you plant your fruit trees?

Generally i agreed with your buddy. If you want a “1 size fits all” solution. Go with root flare.

The reality is a little more complex though.

There are many factors that can have an effect on planting depth.

-species/type of rootstock and scion. And their properties.
-aeration of your soil. (soil with bad aeration/drainage. Are bad for planting deeper. Since the roots that are used to a decent amount of oxygen/air could die back when planted to deep in soils with little aeration)
-age of the trunk. Older trunks generally handle being planted deeper worse than your rootstocks/whips. (1-2 year old trees)
-quality of the nursery you bought the tree from. (some nursery’s graft to high or to low. And on young tree’s you could correct this by planting deeper/higher)
-younger tree’s often don’t have an obvious rootflare…

Planting deeper.
A lot of the fruit tree rootstocks used root readily. So can be planted deeper. (quince, apple rootstocks, basically rootstocks that come from stoolbeds/cuttings)

why plant deeper?
For multiple reasons this can be a good idea. (but isn’t always)

If you have very dry but well aerated soil. Planting deeper moves the roots of the young tree in a deeper zone that dries out slower.

Some rootstocks have less desirable “above ground” properties. Think the apple rootstocks M26 and MM111. They easily form burrknots. So if your MM111 tree is grafted high. It might be worth planting deeper (if age and soil allow it). So that the graft union is roughly 2-4" above ground or mulch level.

Some rootstocks from tissue culture root readily. (WUR766 sloe and VVA-1 for plums/apricots/peaches and probably gisella 6 for cherry for example). And should be planted a little deeper. So there is some rootstock shank below ground. This however should be done by the nursery. It’s often important for those rootstocks to have some rootstock shank below ground level. However if transplanting tissueculture plants often they don’t have any rootstock shank below soil level. Due to how TC works. This is however a more rare occurrence, For most nursery bought fruit tree’s. (since there aren’t that many rootstocks from TC and nursery’s usually (or should) plant those TC plugs a little deeper)

Dwarfing effect of rootstock.
Some of the more dwarfing rootstocks become more dwarfing the more of the rootstock shank is above ground. This might be a desired effect. But might make the tree have to low vigor. If read a few experiments of planting deeper/grafting higher on M9 rootstocks. There where clear effects. But not super big. So I’m not sure as a home grower we should bother to much with this effect.

When to not plant to lower the graft union (even though the rootstock would allow it)

Some scion varieties have less desirable properties. (think cox orange susceptibility to Neonectria ditissima - Wikipedia)
So these varieties have been grafted high. So there is more trunk-length of the rootstock instead of the scion variety. To lower problems with cankers on the trunk. Here the graft union is purposefully very high on the stem. Would be quite rare again for nursery bought fruit tree’s.

When to plant higher.

Simply if the nursery has planted to deep. Or up-potted to deep. Or grafted to low.

If the graft union is buried or to low to ground level (and you don’t want an own root tree)
You could plant a little higher, if it’s from a stoolbed/cutting rootstock tree. And enough rootstock shank/trunk remains below ground and most of the roots remain below ground. (you can often loose a few of the top roots this way)

Some fruit tree rootstocks are sown or don’t root from the stem.
Things like pear seedlings. These has a very clear differentiation between above ground and below ground tissues. Planting these deeper can lead to the stem rotting. Or planting to high leads to the “taproot” trunk part drying out. These have a very clear rootflare/tissue difference between the part that’s supposed to go below ground/above ground. If planted to low by the nursery. You can correct it by planting a little higher.

Generally anything that has a rootstock that’s not from a stoolbed/cutting should be planted at rootflare.

@NewOrchardist

My buddy said much the same as that video. that basically, it doesn’t matter how long the rootstock sticks above the soil line, 3" or 12", doesn’t matter, plant the top of the crown at the top of the soil…

on average true. However there are exceptions.

• for rootstocks with less desirable properties (burrknots like MM111) planting deeper to have the graft union 2-4" above soil level is generally a good idea.
• when you want the fruit tree to own root. You need to burry the graft union
• see above for when to plant deeper etc

In this picture. On the left is a quince rootstock (for pears,quince meddlar etc) I’m comfortable planting that with the soil line anywhere between the bottom and top red arrow.
On the right is a pear seedling rootstock. I would only plant that at the red arrow. Not higher or lower.

Another thing to consider when planting is circling roots. Im not sure everyone agrees. But i always look at the roots and prune when roots are circling.

These roots circling might become a problem later on.

Here you see a rootstock in the back. And the cut of problematic roots in the front.

[alan]

@NewOrchardist

it doesn’t matter how long the rootstock sticks above the soil line, 3" or 12", doesn’t matter,

If you don’t expect pat answers that apply to every situation and species and try to understand what is happening instead of just following directions you can become an expert, even if you are an amateur. Of course, not everyone who plants a fruit tree wants to invest the time and effort to obtain a basic understanding of tree biology, and that’s fine- we all have limited time.

The standard advice is to plant the tree at the same depth as it was at its nursery, which you can usually tell by the change of color from exposure to light on the bark in the above ground part of the trunk…

As far as I know, advice that varies on this is for specific reasons. Sometimes it is recommended to plant trees on non-dwarfing rootstock right at the meeting of root stock and scion wood to reduce the chances of trees breaking in strong winds- I don’t live in an area with crazy wind so have always ignored that advice.

Trees on size controlling root stocks are generally recommend to be planted with that union high enough above the ground to avoid possible rooting of the scion, defeating the dwarfing affect of the root stock. If you plan to mulch trees you will need to keep this union somewhat higher still.

When planting such trees it is especially important to dig holes only as deep as necessary to plant to the depth desired- this will stop the tree from sinking later. But even this advice is not always good- if the soil is very compacted it may be useful to loosen up the soil further down and then tamping it down again before planting the tree In severely compacted soils you may want to do this in a fairly wide area outside the tree, but in some soils this may create a bath tub affect if the soil is so compacted it drains poorly. Such soils require a whole other body of advice I won’t start on here.

A weird contradiction to the advice of not planting trees too deep is when planting trees on rootstocks too sensitive to low temps that may occur in the region the tree is being planted- such as planting quince rooted pear trees in a zone 6 or lower. In this case, it may be wise to plant the tree a couple of inches below the graft union to protect the rootstock from being killed.

Of course, whenever you plant size controlling rootstock deep enough that you bury the graft there is a chance roots will grow out above the graft, but the tendency for this to happen varies a great deal from species to species and variety to variety. In apples, varieties like some sports of Red Delicious. Gala and many others, develop root primordia all over the above ground wood are the most likely to spring roots when planted with the graft union below the ground- this may lead to an excessively vigorous tree. .However, I’ve seen commercial orchards with many trees planted “too deep” where such rooting never came into play as far as affecting the vigor of the trees.

If you want hard rules and clear answers, it’s probably better to work with cars and other man-made things where instructions don’t have so many variables.

[oscar]

@Drew51

Also I never heard of making rootstock by rooting cuttings. I don’t know of any rootstock made like that. Can you give examples? And where can I buy that rootsrock?’?

if I’m not mistaken OHXF series has been propagated by cuttings. You might have bought such a rootstock already.

If had good success rooting cut of pieces of rootstock from Bench grafting of most apple rootstocks.
Often they are propagated from stoolbed since that’s less work/cheaper though.

I remember reading a paper where they said Gisella 6 could be propagated by cuttings. However my Gisella 6 rootstocks i think where from TC.

if also had good luck rooting quince cuttings.

Producing rootstocks from cuttings is very possible and has been done. Often it is more economical/cheaper to produce from stoolbeds. Since you can get a graftable rootstock in 1 year of growth from a stoolbed. From cuttings it can take 2 years to get a graftable caliper.

[Drew51]

Very informative thanks! I probably didn’t know about it because I don’t grow apples ( or rootstocks) But my daughter bought property with 27 apple trees. Asked for my help. So I have been looking into it but have not got to rootstocks yet!

[alan]

I don’t propagate root stocks so didn’t know anything about growing them from cuttings, but according to Chatai it is a common practice. Artificial intelligence apps may not always be accurate (what info source is?), but they are still very useful to me for quick answers. Here’s what my robot tells me.

Common fruit tree rootstocks such as apple, pear, and quince are often propagated through cuttings, but the success rate can vary depending on the species and the specific cultivar. Here’s a general guide for each:

1. Apple: Apple rootstocks are often propagated through hardwood cuttings taken during the dormant season (late fall to early spring). The cuttings are typically taken from one-year-old shoots and are about pencil-thick. They are then treated with rooting hormone and planted in a well-draining medium. M9 and M26 are two common dwarfing rootstocks that can be propagated from cuttings.
2. Pear: Pear rootstocks can also be propagated from hardwood cuttings during the dormant season. Similar to apples, the cuttings are taken from one-year-old shoots and treated with rooting hormone before planting. Quince rootstock (Cydonia oblonga) is commonly used for pears and can be propagated from cuttings as well.
3. Quince: Quince rootstocks, such as Quince A (Cydonia oblonga), are often used for pears and can be propagated from hardwood cuttings. The process is similar to apple and pear propagation, with cuttings taken during the dormant season and treated with rooting hormone.

It’s important to note that while these rootstocks can be propagated from cuttings, the success rate may not be as high as other methods like grafting onto established rootstocks. Additionally, some rootstocks may have specific requirements for successful propagation, so it’s recommended to research the specific rootstock and follow appropriate propagation techniques.

[Drew51]

@alan

Here’s what my robot tells me.

Ha! All I have is a magic 8 ball

@alan

apple, pear, and quince

Everything I don’t grow. My daughter’s property had pears too. And I added a quince or two last year. Thanks for getting me up to speed!

[alan]

@Drew51

Ha! All I have is a magic 8 ball

It’s free and easy to install. My wife tuned me into it. My son has an advance version you now have to pay for but he got for free by getting it when it was first offered. .

[Drew51]

Yeah AI is here to stay. I’ll get with it one of these days. Although the magic 8 ball will be hard to give up

[WilmingtonNC]

As long as you plant above the graft line you should be fine. Also keep in mind that the hole can never really be to big.

[chriso]

Morus nigra black mulberries are typically grafted onto Morus alba rootstock propagated by rooted cuttings

[jcguarneri]

That shouldn’t impact where the root flare is planted relative to the soil line. What you can do is change where the soil line is relative to the surrounding topography. In poor drainage areas, you can mound the soil. Dry areas, you can plant in a swale or depression. However, your root flare should still be at the soil line.

That being said, a very young tree will be more flexible in how you plant it. A one year old apple graft, for example, will have no trouble sprouting additional roots from the “trunk” if you bury it a bit, and that section will eventually become the root flare. I routinely pot up persimmon seedlings a little high to fit in pots, because the feeder roots often start several inches below the old soil line; the raised section of taproot has no trouble becoming part of the trunk. An older tree, on the other hand, will be more “set in its ways” and will be prone to rot and other woes.

[oscar]

@alan

according to Chatai it is a common practice. Artificial intelligence apps may not always be accurate (what info source is?), but they are still very useful to me for quick answers. Here’s what my robot tells me.

AI in my opinion (at least in it’s current form) should not have a place on this forum.
Currently it’s a word association algorithm. There is no reasoning experience or expertise behind it. It just scans texts and looks at what word is often used next after the last one.

@alan

It’s important to note that while these rootstocks can be propagated from cuttings, the success rate may not be as high as other methods like grafting onto established rootstocks.

This is a perfect example of such a word association algorithm getting it wrong.

It probably read fruit tree growing texts. And quite often grafting to an established rootstock is advised for propagating fruit tree cultivars.

However in the context it put it in now. It does not make sense anymore. But the AI does not understand what a rootstock is, or what grafting is. It just looks at texts and tries to guess the next word in a sentence.

If you asked me how best to propagate a rootstock. And i said i propagate all my rootstocks by grafting onto established rootstocks. You would not trust anything i write afterwards.

please stop with the AI writing posts for you. Or more clearly mark it. (different colour or quotation marks) Warn at the beginning of the post that it is AI generated so we can skip it if we don’t want to read AI text.

Also at least mention the prompt you gave the AI.

Without the prompt it is even more unreliable or untrustworthy for the rest of the forum users!

Note that this is not meant as a personal attack. If anyone else was letting AI write reply’s in a topic i would have had a similar response.

[oscar]

your right. gone off was a poor choice of word. I edited it.

[jcguarneri]

@alan @oscar let’s not derail this post, please.

[Duncandog]

I recenty got a backhoe, after the last holes i dug, I now disagree. Lol, I dug 4 foot deep holes for 3 foot tall apples.

[Duncandog]

I have my pear trees on OHxF 97. They dont like being planted deeper.

[oscar]

@alan

You didn’t edit it to make it within forum rules.

How would you like it edited?

I’m not aware of how I’m violating forum rules. Could you explain that to me? I’m happy to edit it further.

@alan

What puzzles me is you act as if I (or the AI quote) was contradicting anything you said, which it wasn’t.

If the AI or you agrees with my experience or not, is not the point here. Or at least not the point I’m trying to make about not using or responsibly using text generative AI on this forum.

I’m not against the way you used AI in the above post, because i perceived it as disproving my own experience or claims (which it didn’t) But because i think text generative AI (at least in it’s current form) is bad for the forum. Regardless of what forum member posts it. Regardless if it supports or disproves my own posts.

@alan

Also, I’ve never objected to people posting links except when they post them without explaining the relevance of the post when it is difficult to understand. Links that lead to useful explanations are something we all use here. . Otherwise the only objection I could imagine having is pastes and copies without providing the link it is from to it can be judged within the original context.

I’m not sure i completely understand what your saying here.

But i said that I’m amazed that you are using these AI generated reply’s on the forum. Because in the past (and currently) you have always asked for or demanded a high standard of scientific proof or argument/experience from others on the forum. Something i quite like about you on the forum.

But using AI to write reply’s while admitting you lack the knowledge/experience to verify the validity of the AI generated text your posting. Seems amazing and a stark contrast to your normal standard for scientific accuracy.

If some-one asked me a year ago which user would post AI generated text. I would have guessed you last. That’s why i was amazed. It was not meant as a personal attack or claim about your character. I did choose my words poorly. And if there is still something in my post that offends you. Please let me know what specifically and ill change it. (either by public post or pm)

@alan

You shouldn’t use topics to engage in public textual floggings.

My response was not meant as a public textual flogging. You have in the past similarly responded and critiqued my posts. So i assumed it was okay to critique your post. It was meant as a critique on the post/use of AI. And not on you as a person. My apologies if it came off that way.

@alan

If you want to criticize something I did in the past, send me a personal note with specific examples of what you might find offensive.

I’m not criticizing something you did in the past. I’m criticizing your current use of text generative AI to write forum reply’s.

@alan

If you remove the comment about my using quotes from AI I will happily continue this discussion with you.

Do you want me to remove the whole post? Or what part specifically?

@alan

I posted the content because I thought it expanded on your original excellent response. I didn’t know that those common apple rootstocks were frequently propagated from cuttings.

glad to hear you liked me previous response. I also like a lot of the forum responses you have.

My disliking the use of text generative AI to write forum reply’s. Has nothing to do with you personally. It’s just my general opinion. Because you have been open to critique in the past. And critiqued others and had meaningful discussions in the past. I assumed it was okay to use your post to start a discussion. I made another topic to discus AI further to not derail this topic to much.
If you want to discus further we can in PM or in that topic. (or another new topic if you like)

Should we allow AI generated text on this forum?

A few times if seen people use AI to generate reply’s/text to topics on this forum about fruit growing. I personally think these should not have a place on the forum. AI (at least in it’s current form) is a worth association algorithm. It reads loads of text. And based on these texts starts writing sentences 1 word at a time. Guessing each next word based on what word often follows the last word. (in the scanned texts) This means it basically tries to copy/combine a lot of scanned text from s…

[oscar]

I’m sorry. i read this after i posted my last reply. Would you like me to remove or move that reply, and the one that “started” this out of the topic?

[NewOrchardist]

What does any of that have to do with “Fruit Tree Planting Depth?”

[oscar]

your right. At this point it has gone completely off topic.

It started with some-one posting AI generated text that said

It’s important to note that while these rootstocks can be propagated from cuttings, the success rate may not be as high as other methods like grafting onto established rootstocks.

This AI generated text seems to claim or suggest the best way to propagate rootstocks is to graft them onto established rootstocks.

Which is obviously incorrect or at least an incomplete statement.

And this started as me critiquing these parts of the AI generated text and the general use of “text generative AI” on this forum.