Giant Chestnuts

Wow!!! That’s a Holy Grail level variety! Now I’m off to convince my parents that they really need two full size Chinese chestnuts in their backyard.

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You can grow two full size Chinese chestnuts and graft two varieties to each tree. When grafted they will be smaller than regular seedling trees.

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Good to know! I figured that grafting a pollination branch was an option but didn’t realize I could do a 50:50 split. Still, they need both trees :wink:

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I’m currently grow Castanea Sativa, from 7-8 trees that were planted in 1912 near the ocean, I haven’t had the chance to eat one maybe this year I’ll set aside a couple of the best ones and see how they taste. I’m growing them primarily to sell but the history behind them is what I find fascinating, apparently a priest named Father Vullingh’s and Sister Colette both travelled up and down Vancouver Island, and along there way they use to plant garden beds for churches, plant trees etc. The parentage of these spanish chestnuts is from the Netherlands, as father Vullingh’s use to go back there to visit family and brought along seeds and plants from there.

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Two and a half last questions (sorry for hassling you so, but your answers are really helpful and hopefully I can eventually breed something interesting or at least provide some good seedlings to this community)

  1. Is it feasible to maintain a Chinese chestnut frankentree with 5 or 10 varieties, assuming that they’re relatively similar in vigor?

  2. Any recommendations for a blight resistant rootstock for Euro/Jap hybrids? It seems like Szego seedling might be good but I would be curious if there are better options. I know they’ll succumb to blight eventually and may not fruit well anyways but at $4 a stick from Burnt Ridge and Fruitwood, they may be fun to try to fruit and do some breeding with.

2a. Alternatively, is Szego already so good (in terms of yield, flavor, vigor, and keeping qualities) compared to say Gillet or Torakuri, that is not really worth bothering to start with something else?

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It is the same challenge as maintaining any frakentree, like an apple. Some cultivars may be more or vigorous than others, so you have to prune to keep everything in balance.

The only caveat is that the vigor may impart graft compatibility issues. There’s still a debate in chestnut research about graft compatibility, which is why many suggest using seedlings of X to graft X cultivar.

According to Buzz, it’s not a genetic compatibility issue, so much as vigor imparted by genetics. If the rootstock is too vigorous, the graft can be weak, because scion outgrows the healing occurring at the graft union. Presumably, this would explain why using seedlings of a particular cultivar (matching vigor) produces better long term results. As I recall, this is his explanation why so chestnut grafts commonly fail, particularly when using hybrid seed like asian x euro or asian x american (seedlings are too vigorous). This is why he is extra picky about the seed he uses for rootstock.

Many of these are qualitative traits depending on environment. All cultivars usually have some sort of negative trait, but it’s not expressed in every environment. HARC only sells seedlings from their PQK block, because these are the most demanded consistently demanded genetics, and high percentage of “good” progeny (Black satin is QxP, if I remember correctly). They don’t sell seed from this block. That’s how much value they put into these genetics, even though Szego does ended up getting sold as seed. Having said that, even P,Q, and K have their negative traits.

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Thanks! I guess it would be somewhat harder than fruit trees that are on semi dwarf or dwarf rootstocks given the size of the mature trees, but sounds pretty doable.

I think Znutty sells excess HARC PQK seedlings and Canopy Farm Management sells seedlings of PQ F1 from Red Fern Farm which is basically the same genetics without the K. HARC’s goals (presumably uniformity, vigor, high yield, resistance to gall wasps and fungal diseases, with reasonably high quality nuts) are a bit different from my interest, since I would be primarily looking for precociousness, smaller trees, and exceptionally (not just good or even excellent) tasty nuts for home orchardists.

Thanks for the information about vigor based incompatibility. That seems like another argument to field graft to mature seedlings when the rootstock vigor is easier to assess. I was listening to him on a podcast yesterday and it sounds like the Northern Nut Growers Association may have recorded a lot of other interesting ideas about grafting and selecting. Might be my winter reading project this year!

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It’s not excess. Znutty buys the seedlings (not seed) in bulk from HARC. There are substantial discounts for bulk. HARC recently trademarked PQK seedlings too.

Red Fern Farm has PQ but it will be mixed with C. denata and other hybrids like mossberg. Tom isn’t bagging his seed. Nor does he have isolated planting blocks. It’s an orchard not a research farm. So you know mother, not the father.

If you have a goal with breeding, a 50% unknown is a huge risk.

The problem is that no seedling is guaranteed, it’s still a roll of the dice for whatever you are breeding for. Precociousness isn’t always desirable, you can end up with a cultivar with a tendency for fall flowering, which means smaller yields. Tasty is very qualitative. There are people who like the sweetness of asian chestnuts, others like the earthiness flavor imparted by american and euro genetics. However, you can equally find people that describe american and euro chestnuts to be “sweet” or a “flavorful sweet.” I can also find people that describe the opposite.

Nut breeding is probably one of the slowest breeding programs of any “fruit” bearing tree, relative to poms, berries, stone fruit. Chestnut is probably the fastest within the nut family for breeding, but it’s still very slow.

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Okay, I think I misunderstood your comment about PQK with their cooperative breeding program. I don’t think anyone (even people in the program) is buying them or PQ F1s for breeding purposes, just getting seedlings with high likelihood of being pretty good orchard plants.

Even in my wildest imaginings, I would be a minor dabbler doing a couple crosses amongst a few good varieties. I only have a 2/3 acre lot and that includes my house, 3 big oaks, big vegetable and ornamental gardens, and a bunch of other fruit trees.

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I don’t mean breeding per say to introduce new cultivars. I mean in the sense of what you’re aiming for - good seedlings. It completely depends on your frame of reference.

I would argue that the likelihood of “pretty good” is a lower using seed PQ from Red Fern as opposed to HARC PQK if you’re trying to aim similar or improvements on their parents (PQ), since there is a higher likelihood you’re getting different as the pollen parent.
On the other hand, the likelihood is higher if you like Szego, since it has a higher chance to be in that cross.

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The PQ F1s should be pretty isolated. They’re flanked by grafted Peaches and Qings. Maybe not as good as more isolated PQK seedlings in terms of isolation but cheaper and possibly better for folks interested in just P and Q characteristics. Getting 2 likely parents gives more predictability than 3 varieties as HARC is doing for PQK and LWS, even if there’s potentially a 5-10% chance of mixing from elsewhere.

Presumably HARC is doing this is with an eye to understanding how chestnut genetics express in a breeding population and possibly give more options for expression in F2 and subsequent generations. But for the folks just looking for a good orchard tree, I think there’s a good argument that PQ F1 might have more predictable genetics.

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You’re right, people are buying seedlings because is getting nigh impossible to buy good grafted cultivars. Buzz is one of the very last people doing it for retail.

People are buying seedlings with the cross fingers hope that it’s exactly or similar to the parents in the characteristics they want. The problem being that X person has set 1 of characteristics they are looking for while Y person has set 2 of characteristics they want, and these two sets do not necessarily overlap.

Have you been to red fern? I wouldn’t use that term.

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LOL no. If there’s basically no isolation beyond just one row of parent, then I will agree that the odds of getting an unwanted surprise will be unreasonably high for a wind pollinated plant

Apologies to you and future readers of our discussion for me keeping revising my comments. I do very much appreciate your comments, they’re very helpful information for me and I’m sure others.

There’s definitely possibilities for a home based breeder to do some hand pollinated seedlots.

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I don’t mind. Dialogue is always good.

It looks like this year HARC has changed things up. You could previously order I think a minimum quantity of 50 seedlings (or was it 100? I don’t remember). Right now it’s minimum of 250.

However, HARC is no longer just selling seedlings from its PQK block. They are also selling seedlings (not seed) from their other plantings. Chestnut Improvement Network | The Center for Agroforestry You have still have to hit 250 seedlings total per order, but you can mix up selection.

Last year their seed went on sale in the late summer. Not sure if they are sold out of seed or if they haven’t made it available yet. Minimum order for seed was like 1 pound and depending on cultivar it was 20-30 per pound, and another 10 dollars for shipping.

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Hopefully the scion availability keeps up and expands, then they’ll just need to learn to graft.

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I recall seeing that they previously sold seeds before September 1, so it’s possible they’re moving into a seedling from Mountain Gentry only model. It makes sense to have all the participating orchards have a uniform start to help with future evaluations. Then again, Route 9 had such a low set this year that they’re not selling any seeds yet, so maybe it’s just low availability this year.

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Pretty sure Mountain Gentry is new. They didn’t have that arrangement last year. I would assume that is retail.

If you click on “seedling order form” you get to order directly from UofM.


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Copy-of-UPDATED-PQK-Chestnut-Seedling-Trees.pdf (2.7 MB)

the Chestnut Trees, Trees Archives - Mountain Gentry from the PQK pdf goes to Mountain Gentry. Though, it’s not clear if Mountain Gentry Select Chestnut Trees = UMCA PQK seedlings.

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Pretty sure Mountain Gentry is handling the HARC order as I recall seeing reference to the partnership elsewhere. On the order page you directed there’s an option to pick up in Moultrie, GA, where MG is located. The trees they show
do look really good.

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Yes, you can maintain multiple grafts on a chestnut tree.

The best rootstock for the E/J hybrids would be seedlings of them with either a Japanese or Chinese pollen parent. But some of those seedlings will not be vigorous enough, so select for vigor.

Szego, Gillet and Torakuri all have different qualities. It’s hard to say that one is the best.

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I don’t mean the age of the company. I mean the arrangement is new. HARC handled sales directly last year.

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