D.V rootstock with a Hybrid grafted on top then topworked to several other Hybrids will be fine. D.V rootstock with Kaki grafted on the top then multi-grafted other Kaki varieties will be fine. I have done them both. But have not try to graft the Hybrid on Kaki yet but I think it will take because of the 50/50 Kaki/DV. You can graft trial several branches on the Kaki and some on your Nikita’s Gift for insurance and see if the Hybrids on Kaki will continue to survive and thrive about a year later.
All Diospyros kaki varieties are compatible with D.virginiana rootstock. And that works in both directions… Diospyros lotus is compatible with all astrigent D.kaki and with some non-astringent D.kaki. but generally speaking D.lotus is incompatible with pcna type kaki. The incompatibility can be overcome by using an astringent type kaki as interstock on D.lotus and grafting a pcna type like Fuyu or Izu on the astringent type interstock. And last…some D.virginiana like Yates, NC21, Szukiss are compatible with D.lotus others are not. But the only reason for this type of grafting would be to obtain non suckering trees…
That is indeed so. Jiro is one of the pcna types that is compatible with lotus and so is O’gosho and a few other ones. But most others like Fuyu, Hana Fuyu, Suruga, Izu, etc. are not compatible. They will bond with lotus and might grow vigorously during the first two years but then they will abort because of the burl that forms at the grafting point…
But as I said, this can be overcome by using an interstock. I have a 15 year old Matsumoto wase fuyu on lotus with Mikatani Gosho interstock. It grows perfectly and there are absolutely no signs of incompatibility.
@Mikatani do you know or can you point me to a list of D.Virginiana cultivars that are graft compatible on D. Lotus rootstock? You mentioned Yates, NC21 and Szukiss. I am curious about others.
@Matt_in_Pennsylvania did you say you multi-budded Early Golden on D. Lotus or on D. Kaki Chocolate as interstem on D. Lotus?
@californicus, most/nearly all of the CRFG folks are grafting their DV scions on lotus rootstock. This is for nearly all varieties of DV. I don’t think you need to bother with any interstems.
For some reason, lotus is vastly preferred over DV as rootstock in California.
Thanks. That helps. I recently learnt that Patrick Shaffer also propagates American persimmons on D. Lotus rootstock. I’ll grow it out and hopefully it’s large enough by next winter that I can graft some D. Virginiana varieties on it.
Smaller size, lack of suckers and easy availability of seeds may be the reasons why this is used widely in California.
No sorry, trial and error is the only way. In my experience all virginiana are perfectly or to some extend compatible with lotus. Those that are least compatible will form a large burl at the graft union, the ones that do well will make a perfect union. Pieper i.e. will form a burl, NC21 makes a perfect union. I haven’t tried to many virginiana on lotus rootstock
I have some Lehmans Delight on D. lotus as i had no other seeds or rootstocks. So far it looks good and I have to keep it that way as I have no other persimmon that I could use as an interstem. Some of the grafts are very low so I’m thinking about burying the graft union just in case.
So this is a rather unusual persimmon grafting question, but does anyone know if D. nigra (black sapote) has ever been tested for graft compatibility with other Diospyros species? I’m growing some D. texana (Texas persimmon) seedlings and the eventual goal is to try to hybridize them with nigra, so it would be really convenient if I could just use the texanas as rootstocks for nigra scions, too.
Yes- At one time, I had a successfully-grafted Early Golden persimmon scion (D virginiana) grafted onto a Chocolate persimmon (D kaki) (interstem) grafted onto D lotus rootstock. The plant grew, but weakly, in central Maryland. Then it perished after a difficult transplant to northern Pennsylvania.
Some of my persimmon grafts beginning to push, On 5/14 I did my top working grafts on my Chocolate tree. Last year I had tried to graft several DV scions to this tree. Only one out of two Prok grafts was a success as was only one of three 10- 46 grafts. All my Early Goldens failed.
This year with an idea I got from @Mikatani, I pre- grafted all my DV grafts to a hybrid Kaki/DV interstem scion, and kept them 4 days in pre-callousing before grafting onto my Chocolate.
It appears now that the Early Golden on Zima Kuhrma interstem is trying to grow. When I grafted these the daily highs were in the high 70s, but this last week has been in mid50 -mid 60F, so it’s taking more time for persimmon grafts to get going. But thanks to Dithmar’s suggestion I seem to have more DV grafts taking on my Chocolate as well as my neighbors Giombo.
I bought an IKKJ and a Fuyugaka, both on DV from plant me green in April 2019. I had thought that being on DV they might grow more aggressively but I think the varieties are somehow dwarfing. The IKKJ is now about 6’ high and the Fuyugaka about 5’ high. Last year both flowered but all were shed as young fruitlets. Now only a few flowers are on IKKJ, but none on Fuyugaka. Each year I think maybe next year they will fruit! So here we are in year 5 and I’m thinking I may need to graft them over to faster growing varieties. In our area it’s hard to find a variety that will actually ripen due to a short growing season. I chose IKKJ because I know Jiro ripens here and I wanted a dwarf variety. My patience is running out however with its slow to fruit character.
Dennis
Kent, wa
Jiro is one of the few dwarf Asian persimmons. IKKJ is just like Maekawa Jiro an early ripening bud sport of Jiro. So these are all dwarf varieties. Jiro has a habit of skipping flowering in a less favorable climate. It may not or barely flower for one or a few years and then suddenly be loaded with flowers. In my experience low winter chill helps in flower formation. I have noticed more profuse flowering after a harsh winter… I presume This variety does better in a climate with low winter and high summer temperatures.
My experience is in Bulgaria where diospyros lotus is the typical persimmon rootstock, while American persimmons are quite rare. So if any nursery offers a DV cultivar, it will most likely be on a Lotus rootstock. That being said, I have got a few such American persimmons over the years - Dick and Pieper - and they all died after one or two years. Usually the rootstock survives, but the grafted variety is rejected I believe. This was confirmed to me by friends as well. Maybe there’s cultivars that do better on date plum rootstock, but I haven’t laid hands on such.
On the other hand, I do have 4 or 5 seedling American persimmons and they grow quite well compared to the d. Lotus grafted varieties. So I’m convinced it’s a compatibility issue. I have also noticed that hybrid persimmons on DV rootstock tend to leaf out a lot later than the same on D.lotus, which may be an advantage in areas with late frosts. I don’t know if this may negatively affect ripening though in a shortened growing season.
I didn’t know about some non-astringent oriental persimmons being incompatible with a d.lotus rootstock. It’s good to know. I’m considering using as interstem hybrid Rosseyanka to graft American persimmons onto a lotus rootstock. I wish I had more diospyros virginiana seedlings, but I’m yet to get any of them to bloom or fruit.
